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OK, I let you pass the first time, now it's my turn. You capitalized all the letters in my response which in my mind says you were yelling at me. Second you worded your response in a way that made me sound stupid. I'm not so smart as you and I probably should let this slide, but I won't.

You might know hydraulics's better then I do, I'm not an expert. I have never put others in the position you have though and hope I never do. By capitalizing your comments and wording it the way you did, you made me look stupid and after stewing over it for a while I think your a jerk. If I have something wrong in what I say, tell me and explain what I said or did wrong. Don't just yell at me and infer that I'm stupid, tell me what's wrong with what I said. If you can't do that, don't say anything at all.

I respected what you said and asked a question, any answers???

If I get banned from this forum for what I've said, so be it. Your a JERK!!! Did you notice I capitalized that?
Mich990,

I'm confused about your apparent indignity and what your unanswered question might be? I've reread this thread a couple of times and believe your points are right on and I haven't seen any comments that imply otherwise so what's got your undies in a knot?
 
Mich990,

I'm confused about your apparent indignity and what your unanswered question might be? I've reread this thread a couple of times and believe your points are right on and I haven't seen any comments that imply otherwise so what's got your undies in a knot?
I take it that when someone capitalizes all the letters, they're yelling and I feel his response to my original post was a slam.

My question...

Am I a hydraulics engineer? Nope, and don't claim I am. That said, I have a question. If the valve allows a certain amount of pressure into that system, does it matter? Wouldn't the pressure on the seal be the same if the first motor required the pressure instead of the second? I guess I don't understand that part of it.

Maybe I just took it wrong, and if I did I'm sorry. And skyrydr2 sorry about that.

Otherwise my prior post stands.
 
I take it that when someone capitalizes all the letters, they're yelling and I feel his response to my original post was a slam.

I don't see any comments, caps or otherwise, that slammed you in any way.

My question...

Am I a hydraulics engineer? Nope, and don't claim I am. That said, I have a question. If the valve allows a certain amount of pressure into that system, does it matter? Wouldn't the pressure on the seal be the same if the first motor required the pressure instead of the second? I guess I don't understand that part of it.

I took this as a rhetorical question since you are right. The pressure relief valve won't allow the pressure at any point in the system to exceed the capacity of any component parts and is there specifically to prevent any damage.

Maybe I just took it wrong, and if I did I'm sorry. And skyrydr2 sorry about that.
No need to be sorry, I just don't like to see people get worked up unecessarily.
 
Yea, your probably right. I didn't make my question clear and I just took it wrong. Enough said and on with the show.


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I take it that when someone capitalizes all the letters, they're yelling and I feel his response to my original post was a slam.

My question...

Am I a hydraulics engineer? Nope, and don't claim I am. That said, I have a question. If the valve allows a certain amount of pressure into that system, does it matter? Wouldn't the pressure on the seal be the same if the first motor required the pressure instead of the second? I guess I don't understand that part of it.

Maybe I just took it wrong, and if I did I'm sorry. And skyrydr2 sorry about that.

Otherwise my prior post stands.
Please read post 16 and then tell me if I answered you question or not?

:trink39: :thThumbsU
 
Please read post 16 and then tell me if I answered you question or not?

:trink39: :thThumbsU
Yes you did and I was not arguing the point so much as the response by someone else. I said it before and I'll say it again, sorry about the whole thing. I interpreted it wrong and I apologize.

You will notice however my first response was reserved even though I felt as though he slammed me. When I saw his second response (Well take it for what it's worth then ... NOTHING ... I really don't mind. I don't know how many years or what kind of hydraulic experience any of you guys have, so go for it , all you might do is spill some oil, or maybe at most burn yourself or the rig to the ground, but hey they all can do this, just the chances are a touch less. I won't add any input what so ever see ya....), well, you've already seen the rest of the story.

Sorry RENeal, you just wanted answers...
 
Yes you did and I was not arguing the point so much as the response by someone else. I said it before and I'll say it again, sorry about the whole thing. I interpreted it wrong and I apologize.

You will notice however my first response was reserved even though I felt as though he slammed me. When I saw his second response (Well take it for what it's worth then ... NOTHING ... I really don't mind. I don't know how many years or what kind of hydraulic experience any of you guys have, so go for it , all you might do is spill some oil, or maybe at most burn yourself or the rig to the ground, but hey they all can do this, just the chances are a touch less. I won't add any input what so ever see ya....), well, you've already seen the rest of the story.

Sorry RENeal, you just wanted answers...
Mich,
I don't know what happened earlier today because I was out all afternoon. You asked a question and in #16 I tried to answer it. My only concern at this point is whether or not my post provided you with the info you sought or if not, what you could not find in that reply. The "other" thingy is of no interest or concern to me. I'm only trying to answer your question. If you have any more questions, please ask away and I will do my best to answer them for you.

:thThumbsU :thThumbsU :thThumbsU
 
I just can't believe this, guys think , the pump feeds the first motor, it turns... OK, great right? But the out side now has no pressure correct? AH yes no pressure because the motor is turning thus used up most if not all the pumps pressure to it to turn, now the out side has no pressure because it's on its way back to the tank via cooler or what have you, so to answer who ever's question will they both turn the same, maybe with no load in theroy, but not in real life.
As for the motor seals , if you block off the return side flow be it either side as I think these motors are bi- directional you will cause internal case pressure ,blowing out the seal. This is why some have case drains in apps that are known to cause this .
So things are not as simple as they appear or we would all be driving hydrostat cars.
And sorry for the caps not ment to yell just get attention I haven't figured out how to underline the text...
 
I just can't believe this, guys think , the pump feeds the first motor, it turns... OK, great right? But the out side now has no pressure correct? AH yes no pressure because the motor is turning thus used up most if not all the pumps pressure to it to turn, now the out side has no pressure because it's on its way back to the tank via cooler or what have you, so to answer who ever's question will they both turn the same, maybe with no load in theroy, but not in real life.
As for the motor seals , if you block off the return side flow be it either side as I think these motors are bi- directional you will cause internal case pressure ,blowing out the seal. This is why some have case drains in apps that are known to cause this .
So things are not as simple as they appear or we would all be driving hydrostat cars.
And sorry for the caps not ment to yell just get attention I haven't figured out how to underline the text...
think of the out put side of the motor as a power beyond as long as you have flow it will do work. pressure is only a measure of resistance. i would suggest a cooler either between the motors or they may get each hot if you really dog on her.
 
Is a holding valve incoporated in these articulating projects and secondly, does a holding valve react to flow change or pressure change ?
You can choose to use a holding valve or choose not to use a holding valve. If you are working on steep grades often, then buy a used travel/lift valve off e-bay that has the holding feature built in. Both motors will lock up whenever you stop putting oil to them.
 
I just can't believe this, guys think , the pump feeds the first motor, it turns... OK, great right? But the out side now has no pressure correct? AH yes no pressure because the motor is turning thus used up most if not all the pumps pressure to it to turn, now the out side has no pressure because it's on its way back to the tank via cooler or what have you, so to answer who ever's question will they both turn the same, maybe with no load in theroy, but not in real life.
As for the motor seals , if you block off the return side flow be it either side as I think these motors are bi- directional you will cause internal case pressure ,blowing out the seal. This is why some have case drains in apps that are known to cause this .
So things are not as simple as they appear or we would all be driving hydrostat cars.
And sorry for the caps not ment to yell just get attention I haven't figured out how to underline the text...
skyrydr2,
All a pump does is move oil in a continuous circle. Pressure is something that is created when you try to interfere with the movement of that oil.

Yes, oil enters the first motor and if that motor has a hard time rotating the wheels, then a certain amount of pressure will be created by that resistance. Theoretically speaking, you are correct in saying that the oil exiting the first motor has no pressure because the first motor is no longer asking it to perform work.

However, that oil is now entering the second motor and if that second motor asks for the oil to perform work, then the pressure in the line between the first and second motor will also rise accordingly. This is called "back pressure" because pressure is not a one-way street. The force is equal in all directions in the hydraulic hose/line. Pumps don't create a specific amount of pressure that is "used up" in one device and leaving all other devices helpless. Look at a backhoe with bucket, boom, stick and swing cylinders.

The pump can supply oil to all five or six cylinders when necessary and can apply whatever pressure is needed to dig a bucket of dirt and swing it to one side for emptying. All those cylinders are in parallel with one another. It's the Operator who consciously apportions the volume of oil diverted to each cylinder during the digging process in order to obtain a full bucket but all three cylinders on the hoe get pressure in varying amounts. One cylinder doesn't "use up" the pressure and leave nothing for the other two.

As for your claim about motor seals.......... it is absolutely possible to stop a motor from rotating and that is no different than blocking off one motor port. A stalled motor allows no oil to flow through it and the seals are designed to withstand this pressure. As an example, the Case rototiller is driven by a hydraulic motor. I have often had my tines encounter a rock, root or hard clay that stopped the tines from rotating. When that happens, the relief valve opens up at 2200 PSI and squeals like a stuck pig until I take corrective action. If seals blew out every time this happened, no one would buy those tillers.

Case and Ingersoll are famous for hydraulically powered attachments such as Bush Hog type mowers, finishing mowers, snocasters, mower decks, chipper/shredders, vacuums, double-acting log splitters and roto tillers.

I gave you two links showing an articulated FEL using a pair of 200 series Case trans-axles. Both axles drive this machine in whatever direction the operator wants it to go. Many others have built similar machines. No one runs the motors any other way but in series.
 
Well cgt , only backhoes I know of that use 1 pump to run the hoe are the bottom line case 580 ,310JD and LB 75 , and they run with the hydraulic flow to the hoe different, they put it in the "center" and feed to each side, deere does this Case does not , so if you pull one lever more then all the other functions stop except for the unit being demanded. On larger machines (over 75hp) they use 2 pumps one a touch smaller than the other, and JD uses load sensing "closed" center hydraulics like excavators.

Back on topic,Putting them in series like you say will work for sure, it will use the first motor as a pump for the second one , but you do loose at little when this is done , not optimal , if you run them parrell they will work together and if you stall the first one the second one will still keep going and help out the stalled one. I have done this on a much larger scale many times.

I have built many cord wood proccesors, hydraulic saw mills, elevators, logging equipment and list goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just telling you guys there is a much better way to do it and get more out of it.
Might cost a touch more but most effective.

As for cheap that was ment for the oil, not the tractors or system, those were very expensive to make compaired to the other options out there.
 
Well cgt , only backhoes I know of that use 1 pump to run the hoe are the bottom line case 580 ,310JD and LB 75 , and they run with the hydraulic flow to the hoe different, they put it in the "center" and feed to each side, deere does this Case does not , so if you pull one lever more then all the other functions stop except for the unit being demanded. On larger machines (over 75hp) they use 2 pumps one a touch smaller than the other, and JD uses load sensing "closed" center hydraulics like excavators.

Back on topic,Putting them in series like you say will work for sure, it will use the first motor as a pump for the second one , but you do loose at little when this is done , not optimal , if you run them parrell they will work together and if you stall the first one the second one will still keep going and help out the stalled one. I have done this on a much larger scale many times.

I have built many cord wood proccesors, hydraulic saw mills, elevators, logging equipment and list goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, just telling you guys there is a much better way to do it and get more out of it.
Might cost a touch more but most effective.

As for cheap that was ment for the oil, not the tractors or system, those were very expensive to make compaired to the other options out there.
A few facts.

1. If you put the motors in parallel, you will need a pump twice as big in order to have the same ground speed.

2. If you double the size of the pump, then you need to increase the engine HP dramatically to spin that pump.

3. If one wheel loses traction on a parallel motor set-up, then the tractor will not move while that one wheel is spinning in mud, snow or on ice.

Putting the motors in series solves all three problems.


You need to put this into perspective. COST, COST, COST.

Used transaxles complete with drive motors can be bought for less than $100.00 each. Starting messing around with different motors and the cost goes out of sight.

A 12 hp engine has no problem driving a 10 GPM pump. Go to a 20 GPM pump and now you need close to thirty HP and a very expensive pump by comparison. On top of that, all of the lines, hoses, valves and cooler are too small for 20 GPM.

This isn't about a small cost increase. Your suggestions amount to a HUGE cost increase. And none of it is justified because the current hydraulic system has been working just fine since 1962 and is still in use today.
 
I thought these rigs had twins in them ? That was why I had asked what hp was being used, don't change the motors, you correct about cost getting rediculous, if you go changing things , but isn't this what your try to achieve ? Making it articulated and 4x4?
what size lines are on these rigs ? 1/2" ? If so you can get up to 16gpm through them with out creating too much heat.
I might have to find one of these rigs(2 would be better) and build such a beast, I have tons of hydraulic goodies too. A few small double section pumps, a flow divider with steering circuit priority, and a pile of aux. hydraulic
circuits for powering what ever I can find? I may have found my next project?
After I finish with my Fords first. One is getting powersteering and then it will be mostly finished except for paint, and the older one is just getting paint.
Then we will try out these Case/ Ingersol rigs . I like the large tires they use for sure, and making it 4x4 and articulated is just too much!
What do they use for axles? does it have hi and low built in ?
 
Most models came with Kohlers from 10 to 14 hp. Onan twins were used also at 16 and 18 hp. Ingersoll tractors made in the nineties had some 20 hp Onans and now they all are fitted with Vanguard twins ranging from 18 to 23 hp.

Yes, the lines are 1/2" and yes I agree that 16 GPM is pretty much the limit.

I also agree that there is more than one way to build one of these but as you know, every time you alter one component, that can affect other components. The lowest cost way of making one of these tractors is to stick with OEM parts so you don't compromise the system.

Case/Ingersoll trans-axles are two-speed.
 
Are they Peerless units ? (transaxle)
Pumps Cessna ? With Cessna valves ? Or Danfoss ?
I'm sure it's not commercial products are they ? Big $$$ for these and now they got bout out by Parker Haniffin I believe , not sure now as this is a wicked game of cards like the big trucks are doing now , you never know who owns who now adays:sidelaugh
 
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