Usually, the voltage regulator is mounted somewhere on the engine. The voltage regulator does two things inside the usually encapsulated module of converting the AC voltage to DC voltage and by using diodes to limit the amperage. The diodes are sized for the particular application.

But, I think you are confusing the charging circuit with the battery capacity. Many lawn tractor batteries can provide 300 amps (CCA) for starting the engine. This is a momentary large draw (amps) of the battery and the charging circuit replenishes that battery drawdown as you continue to use the lawn tractor. With the engine turned off, you can still use the winch until the battery supply is drained. With the engine turned on, you can use that same winch many more times as the charging circuit replenishes what you used. Most winches are also limited to the number of times you can use them in a set period of time.

 

Thank you. Respectfully, I don't think I'm confusing battery capacity with charging capacity.

Whether 200CCA or 400CCA, a big electrical load will result in a voltage drop as the battery is drained. And even with "only" a 40A draw, that's still beyond the charging circuit's capacity. Maybe a 400CCA battery will handle that load for 20 seconds before dropping to XX volts, and perhaps a 200CCA battery would drop to that same voltage after only 10 seconds. But they'll both drop to XX volts if the load continues for enough time. Which will put a big load on the charging system.

I just want to understand whether the charging system will self-limit its output to 25A, and remain safe. Or whether it will output, say, 30+ amps, and damage itself, if the battery voltage is low enough (or the load is high enough).

I guess my concern is the distinction between a rating, and regulating. Maybe the diodes are rated to safely handle 25A. But if there isn't a mechanism to self-limit the output, then there might be a problem.

It's a crude analogy, but a wire may be rated for 50A. But there is no control provided. Put 100A through it, and it will overheat and be damaged. Now, add something that ensures the current stays under 50A, and you're OK. But I don't know enough about how these work.

 

The regulator if rated at 25A will sustain a 25A charging rate period. The diodes are rated for 25A possibly more like 30A but the output is regulated to 25A out only. Now, draw a 50A load for example and the regulator will put out its maximum of 25A with the remaining current being drawn from the battery.

 

What Joe said. The charging system will output its rated amperage into the battery or load. It cannot produce more, or will not produce much more than its rated capacity. As the 'battery/system' voltage drops when under load, the amps will increase to the limit.
tom

Thank you guys! I appreciate it. That's great news if the charging system will protect itself from damage due to high loads. I don't want to damage anything.

I don't mind the winch drawing down the battery while using it. And it wouldn't be anything close to constant use, so hopefully the charging system can keep the battery mostly charged. I can hook up the battery maintainer afterwards to ensure it's topped-off.

I did also order a clamp-on multimeter that can read DC, so I'll at least be able to measure the winch's current draw, to better understand the situation. Maybe I can also measure the charging amps.

 

What Joe said. The charging system will output its rated amperage into the battery or load. It cannot produce more, or will not produce much more than its rated capacity. As the 'battery/system' voltage drops when under load, the amps will increase to the limit.
OTOH, I think a short circuit across the output terminals is not a good thing. But, remember, a short circuit has no resistance. A 'load' will have resistance to current flow which will increase as the voltage recovers from a drop due to load or as a battery gets recharged to full capacity. Below a certain voltage, the charging system is more or less coasting as the resistance drops, but not the same drop as a short. At least that's what I think.
tom

 

RO...now I know why you were asking about a volt meter vs Ammeter...I could be wrong about this, or you may have already considered it yourself......but I think that a relay would be useful for this application....just not sure how it would be wired in....this is the kind of thing @Brad would be good at providing some information

 

yes, a relay would help (or a solenoid for that matter) in powering a winch. Simply put, your charging system should be able to maintain the battery if it's not a constant draw, as it will replenish the battery. If the winch draws 50a, and you have a 25a charging system, over the course of an hour you should be able to use the winch for approx. 30 mins and maintain battery charge. Kind of like filling a barrel with water. If you have a feed of 25 gal an hour filling the barrel, and you are watering your garden and when you open the valve it disperses 50 gal per hour you could draw water out for 1/2 as long as you are filling before running mty.

 

Thanks guys. What's the benefit or purpose of the relay/solenoid, if the charging system will protect itself?

In another thread, someone mentioned a relay to disconnect the charging system while the winch is running, due to a concern about the charging system trying to put out >25A, and damaging itself. That made sense to me.

But if it the charging system will only output the safe 25A max, then I'm not quite understanding what the relay would be used for. What would it be disconnecting?

 

Thanks guys. What's the benefit or purpose of the relay/solenoid, if the charging system will protect itself?

In another thread, someone mentioned a relay to disconnect the charging system while the winch is running, due to a concern about the charging system trying to put out >25A, and damaging itself. That made sense to me.

But if it the charging system will only output the safe 25A max, then I'm not quite understanding what the relay would be used for. What would it be disconnecting?

Unfortunately you will get a number of responses from people eager to help with limited knowledge of what is actually going on rather a supposition based on speculation. The charging system will more or less monitor the condition and protect itself. It makes absolutely no sense to throw a solenoid into the mix to disconnect the charging system when the winch is used. You need to view this situation like this.... the battery is a storage facility it has voltage and current the regulator basically looks at the voltage and works on conditions. When the battery voltage starts a downward spiral the regulator circuit allows it to produce what it needs up to a set condition a max to try to maintain a charge condition. (I could explain this in extreme detail but I don't feel like typing it all out).

I wonder if some of you worry about your car or trucks charging system. Ever use a plow or winch on your truck? I've used a plow on an old International Scout with a 4 cylinder engine and a 37A alternator. Using a plow with the up and down cycles taxes the electrical system. What happens with a winch is identical to what happens to a small vehicle with a plow. You use it the charging system isn't quite big enough to possibly keep up if the use cycle is long enough so possibly the battery charge level (volts) go down. How is this condition fixed? Simple, you run the vehicle without the current draw for a while and the battery is replenished or you put a charger on it or you install a larger alternator on it.

This is not rocket science. The charging system as long as there isn't a dead short isn't going to be damaged. The only exception would be if and I repeat if the battery was completely dead and you jump started the engine and tried to use the winch without the battery being charged.

This is why I highly recommended a volt meter over a amp meter. Sure you can watch the amp meter flutter when you use the winch which makes for a good show OR you can put a volt meter in and watch your overall battery condition.

 

a solenoid would help for the control circuit in that a light duty circuit(control circuit) would energize the solenoid. The solenoid would be mounted close to the winch and this would limit the amount of heavy gauge wire to run from the battery to the solenoid to the winch. As we know with a DC circuit over distance you can loose power. You will need a heavy gauge wire and a circuit breaker and or fuse close to the battery also. Now, you also have to take into consideration the amperage of the battery. They are generally rated in CCA but usually have some type of draw figure. The amp meter is going to have very little to show you unless you would like to see it almost peg the needle every time you use the winch. Generally speaking a volt meter might serve you better in providing a idea of the battery condition. AKA if its showing 10VDC then you know the battery is in a downward spiral.

 

RED...i also have a winch to lift a bucket on one of my tractors. Not sure what my charging system is rated at (Kohler K). I have not had a problem so far. I am using an automotive battery in it though. What size battery are you using?

 

I saw the second pic (I think there was just 1 when I first saw this). Very nice!

Did you build the bucket? I like how the bucket pivots, and I now realize it's seemingly gravity-dumped, like my Swisher, but I think your pivot position is better. Mine pivots from the top-back of the bucket, while lets the front of the bucket flop down far when dumped. So I need to lift it higher, which requires the bucket to be positioned further-forward.

You also helped manage that with the clever mounts the move the pivot for the bucket arms up, and further back.

That's really cool! Did it get to move that whole pile?

 

Cool, nice setup! I like where your bucket pivots, that's better than where Swisher makes mine pivot. Though of course theirs needs to dump using gravity, when you pull the release lever.

It's a U1 size battery, 350CCA. I don't know if a larger battery could fit, but this one is only a few months old, so I'll be using this for now. The winch won't be in constant use, so as long as the tractor is helping to recharge it, I think it should be OK. Like in @Joe In IA 's example, I wouldn't expect anything even close to a 50% duty cycle.

 

Good luck with it RO...think it will be this weekend?

 

I hope so, I have most of the pieces cut and drilled. Hopefully I can start welding, test-fitting, and then mounting some of the smaller items. But of course, things may still go awry And I greatly over-estimated how much progress I would make last weekend.

Thankfully, there's no real deadline, but I want to get it working, so I can get a sense of how capable it is. Then maybe I can try doing something with it.

 

Please post the schematic of the regulator you took apart.

 

Thank you, @wally2q . Tons of good info, thank you all.

I intended to connect the winch leads directly to the battery. The winch's wiring setup has an inline circuit breaker. The battery is only a few months old, and will always start out as fully-charged. I can hook up the battery maintainer after sessions with a bunch of winch use, if needed.

I just checked the tractor's electrical schematic, it shows a 30A fuse coming off the alternator, so that's good.

 

I didn't say the diodes regulate. I said there is a regulator circuit built in. Did I not mention to have the load close to the battery?

If the alternator is overloaded, it will slow down and the voltage will drop. In the extreme case, a 100 w bulb may glow like a 10w bulb with flicker. Nothing will happen to the alternator.

 

I didn't say the diodes regulate. I said there is a regulator circuit built in.

yea - on 1st read, i took it as your point was that the diodes will regulatr... when I re-read it - I see your point.
However, there is a big caveat to be mindful of:
If the charging current passes through the regulator, and the regulator actually monitors it, and it has a current limit function, then yes - agreed - it will current-limit the alternator output. However those kinds of regulators, are typically not used in automotive (& OPE) alternator applications.... so i am not certain this function would exist on a small tractor alternator like this... even cars [ie more expensive systems] don't have that feature.

Did I not mention to have the load close to the battery?

No-one said you didn't.... just re-iterating the point.

I intended to connect the winch leads directly to the battery. The winch's wiring setup has an inline circuit breaker. The battery is only a few months old, and will always start out as fully-charged. I can hook up the battery maintainer after sessions with a bunch of winch use, if needed.
I just checked the tractor's electrical schematic, it shows a 30A fuse coming off the alternator, so that's good.

This is the perfect setup... and the alternator fuse will protect you in case other things go wrong....

It's really not that complicated, and as long as good installation practices are used, you will have zero problems.

cheers!

 

Quote
This is actually not the case at all. The diodes do NOT regulate or limit current at all. The diodes will pass all the current that is demanded, until they fail.
The current limiting function is in the alternator windings... and their resistance. Alternators are designed to have a certain resistance, which serves as a current limit. If you short circuit the alternator, you will get more than 25A... and in a matter of a few minutes, either the windings will burn open, or the diodes will fail - but either way: you will damage it.
This is exactly why you should never boost a car with the engine running... because the current draw is so high, it represents itself as an effective short circuit, and odds are the alternator will get damaged.

I beg to differ...

I did not say the diodes regulate I believe I said there is a regulator circuit built into the regulator. And if by chance I didn't make my point then I will clarify. Your little regulator contains several circuits not just (2) 25A diodes. The regulator LIMITS the current output. When you start taxing the capabilities of the charging system the output will become diminished but the system will stay alive that is unless as I mentioned the battery is dead or near dead. No one in their right mind would connect a load to the alternator so I don't know where that came about either.

No the regulator WILL limit the current up to the point where the voltage will drop off. Sure the alternator winding's can supply only so much voltage and current and they are controlled by the regulator. Actually since I've done it I can probably safely say the stator rating is a lot less than they will actually put out. Don't believe me then try a different regulator one with a higher current rating. The regulator is designed to limit voltage and current. I stand by what I posted before. There will be no damage to the alternator.

No one mentioned boosting a car with the engine running so I don't know where that came from but...if you happen to leave the booster charger on and the engine starts its not going to magically damage your alternator. Been there and done that too without alternator or regulator damage. I happened to jump start a car (mine) and then had to take a phone call and the charger was on high start

 

Your little regulator contains several circuits not just (2) 25A diodes.

ya ya - i know all about this...

The regulator LIMITS the current output.

Some regulators do. don't kid yourself... most don't.

No one in their right mind would connect a load to the alternator so I don't know where that came about either.

some people may not know, and may make the mistake and do so.

No the regulator WILL limit the current up to the point where the voltage will drop off.

Could you please help me understand and explain / elaborate on how the current regulator actually limits / regulates the current?...

No one mentioned boosting a car with the engine running so I don't know where that came from but...if you happen to leave the booster charger on and the engine starts its not going to magically damage your alternator. Been there and done that too without alternator or regulator damage. I happened to jump start a car (mine) and then had to take a phone call and the charger was on high start

I should have clarified - i meant boosting a car, with another car. So the car that is doing the boosting, if it is running - its' alternator is running while the other car is being started... the dead-car starter current is sourced by the boosting-cars' battery and its' alternator. Depending on how and where it's connected, you can create voltage surges, and also an overload on the running alternator.

 

quote
However those kinds of regulators, are typically not used in automotive (& OPE) alternator applications.... so i am not certain this function would exist on a small tractor alternator like this... even cars [ie more expensive systems] don't have that feature.

Again I will differ.....most if not all systems are setup exactly as I mentioned. Current and voltage are monitored in the regulator this is a plain fact of life. Even a primitive garden tractor has a decent regulator that works exactly as I mentioned. I've had them apart and analyzed the circuits.

 

quote
However those kinds of regulators, are typically not used in automotive (& OPE) alternator applications.... so i am not certain this function would exist on a small tractor alternator like this... even cars [ie more expensive systems] don't have that feature.

Again I will differ.....most if not all systems are setup exactly as I mentioned. Current and voltage are monitored in the regulator this is a plain fact of life. Even a primitive garden tractor has a decent regulator that works exactly as I mentioned. I've had them apart and analyzed the circuits.

This is not meant to be some sort of debate....

Although there are systems that current-limit alternator charging current - i've seen them - as have you.... however it's not as common as you think (also a fact of life)....
I own the following equipment, and they are configured as follows:

• 2 JD tractors... neither one was has current limit function
• 4 cars... none of them regulate current
• 3 boats (2 outboard motors, 1 inboard)... none regulate current.
• 1 gen-set with batt/alternator.... does not have a current regulator
• 1 self propelled lawn mower with batt/alternator... does not have a current regulator

I guess this is just a statistical anomaly?...

cheers!

 

With all due respect I believe your mistaken. Cars for one certainly have current and voltage limiting in their charging system and if you don't believe I encourage you to do a few experiments to educate yourself. The first would be to remove the regulator and watch the voltage go sky high. The second would be to place a very heavy load on it and watch as it lets loose of the magic smoke trying to supply the current it needs.

And I'm done with this.

 

With all due respect I believe your mistaken. Cars for one certainly have current and voltage limiting in their charging system and if you don't believe I encourage you to do a few experiments to educate yourself. [1] The first would be to remove the regulator and watch the voltage go sky high. [2] The second would be to place a very heavy load on it and watch as it lets loose of the magic smoke trying to supply the current it needs.

[1]: I thought we are talking about current regulation... so how does testing the voltage-regulation-function tell me anything about regulating current?

[2]: According to what you mentioned, this will never happen... because current will be limited to prevent damage. right?

 

My apologies if I accidentally kicked off trouble. Just trying to learn enough to make sure I'm doing things properly, and trying to avoid expensive mistakes.

 

no trouble at all... just a healthy debate based on opinions and experience different people have.
hopefully nobody is taking any of this personally...

It's good to ring out the techincal topics this way...

 

Yep, spread that whole pile of gravel. It did a good job. I figured putting the pivot like that, I could lift it higher, maybe to load a cart or trailer. This was my 2nd attempt at building a bucket, the 1st worked OK, but I like this better...

First one....

Lift on newer one...

I found though that I really don't need to lift it that high to spread dirt or make a pile.

 

That's awesome. Any idea how many yards of gravel that is? Even with a machine to do the lifting, that's still a lot of material to deal with!

I'm glad you were able to iterate a bit, to tweak your setup. I suspect I'll have discoveries as well. The one that's been on my mind is whether I'm setting this up to lift higher than is needed. If I could bring the bucket back, closer to the bucket, that would help keep more weight on the rear wheels. I'll find out once I get to try it out, I guess.

Did the first one use a hydraulic cylinder/linear actuator? My machine has a U1 tractor battery, not a larger car battery.

Thanks for showing yours! It's great to see what other people have done, to help share ideas. I'm glad it's been able to help you with some big jobs!

 

That's awesome. Any idea how many yards of gravel that is? Even with a machine to do the lifting, that's still a lot of material to deal with!

I'm glad you were able to iterate a bit, to tweak your setup. I suspect I'll have discoveries as well. The one that's been on my mind is whether I'm setting this up to lift higher than is needed. If I could bring the bucket back, closer to the bucket, that would help keep more weight on the rear wheels. I'll find out once I get to try it out, I guess.

Did the first one use a hydraulic cylinder/linear actuator? My machine has a U1 tractor battery, not a larger car battery.

Thanks for showing yours! It's great to see what other people have done, to help share ideas. I'm glad it's been able to help you with some big jobs!

Not sure of yardage, but I think the driver said 12 tons. It came in a double axle truck.

Having the bucket closer helps a lot. I noticed with the bucket with weight in it and having it about hood height, it gets pretty tippy if on a side angle. Gotta keep it low.

The first one, I had hooked to the lift cylinder for the deck. It was OK for light dirt, but for heavier stuff I had to help it some. I installed a manual lift handle I had to help pull it up. That's why I went with the winch on this one.

 

I would like to continue this but it seems that my posts seem to magically become deleted here. So I'm done.

 

The charging system on a Kohler M will not regulate voltage over 12 volts. It will tell the system it needs to get busy and do something if the voltage goes under 12 volts.
Just ask the headlights and the 30 amp system fuse on my Ariens if this is not true. Had a battery short out that I had been nursing along that shorted internally.

Correct me if I am wrong but the purpose of a diode is to regulate the path of DC current to make AC current. The average AC charging system contains one or more of - & + diode sets and current only passes threw then in one direction. Creating an AC system. Yes they do have voltage limits.

Even though our lawn and garden tractor only have 10 to 30 amp systems they are quite capable of putting out 120 volts real short term.

Teaching electrical systems is beyond the scope of the original posting and would take more than likely a week or two of class room time. Depending upon the student.

But to put it plain and simple a direct short would be required to damage his tractors charging system. Even then on system fuses should protect it.

 

RO, here's what you can expect to see if/when you don't have enough power to run the winch. This was after I had been running the winch a bunch during setup, not running the engine and had run the battery down. It kicks in and out intermittently. After charging the battery all was good. I can't think of a time I've run down the battery since then just using the winch. Compared to engine run time actual winch use time is extremely small.

 

RO, here's what you can expect to see if/when you don't have enough power to run the winch. This was after I had been running the winch a bunch during setup, not running the engine and had run the battery down. It kicks in and out intermittently. After charging the battery all was good. I can't think of a time I've run down the battery since then just using the winch. Compared to engine run time actual winch use time is extremely small.

Good to know. In your case, I wonder if that's maybe due to the wireless controller cutting in/out, due to the low voltage? Mine is wired & wireless. But the wireless controller was drawing 7mA just sitting there, which would eventually discharge the battery. So for now I clipped that wire inside the control box, now there's no parasitic draw when it's idle.

Alternately, I could put in a big (>100A) relay so the entire winch gets no power when the ignition is off. Or wire just the wireless controller to an ignition wire that's only hot when the key is on.

 

Yeah, that would definitely do it. And (in the case of my wired controller) it would also be a safety to keep the winch from running if a wired button got accidentally bumped while I was moving stuff in the shed.

The down side is that anything manually-activated is more likely to be forgotten Wiring the wireless controller's red wire to the headlights wire, or something else that's only live when the key is on, is maybe a bit more work once, but then takes care of itself automatically after that.

The thin red braided-insulation wire in the middle of this picture was powering the wireless controller, that's the one I clipped. Disconnecting it was going to be more awkward, it's connector was buried a bit.

 

I never have loved the idea of the big power cable running back to the winch so I just ordered one of the shut-off switches.

 

Just trying to figure out what you mean, by running the big wire back? For managing power to the wireless controller, you could just use a thin wire from the ignition (or headlight wire, etc), to the controller. But I get the feeling you're referring to something else, I'm just not picturing it.