my craftsman model no. 917.251492 with kohler model no. MV18S-58560 ran for a few minutes without oil, during which time, it made some loud noises like something broke. Of course, I shut it down immediately, filled it with oil, cranked it over without allowing it to start (to get oil flowing). Later,the engine started and runs without making bad noises now. At idle it runs faster than normal idle speed. It moves the tractor around the yard, but very slowly (also having trouble with the transaxle). I wonder what might have broken that the engine still runs without new noises. I can't tell yet if it still has the power it had before. I feel like something has happened with the governor because of the fast idle speed. Am I just kidding myself, thinking this engine might continue to be useful ? I bought the unit new 17 years ago & it has been great until the transaxle problem and now this stupid way I damaged the engine. Replacing the engine seems out of the question (financially it would make more sense to buy a new or used tractor) but I hate to give up on it. I would appreciate any help from anyone familiar with these kohler engines.
It's hard to believe this happened to me !
jimorris77
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my craftsman model no. 917.251492 with kohler model no. MV18S-58560 ran for a few minutes without oil, during which time, it made some loud noises like something broke. Of course, I shut it down immediately, filled it with oil, cranked it over without allowing it to start (to get oil flowing). Later,the engine started and runs without making bad noises now. At idle it runs faster than normal idle speed. It moves the tractor around the yard, but very slowly (also having trouble with the transaxle). I wonder what might have broken that the engine still runs without new noises. I can't tell yet if it still has the power it had before. I feel like something has happened with the governor because of the fast idle speed. Am I just kidding myself, thinking this engine might continue to be useful ? I bought the unit new 17 years ago & it has been great until the transaxle problem and now this stupid way I damaged the engine. Replacing the engine seems out of the question (financially it would make more sense to buy a new or used tractor) but I hate to give up on it. I would appreciate any help from anyone familiar with these kohler engines.
PRobably broke one of the rods, she's likely a goner...what a shame, those were fantastic engines! They usually only last about 45 seconds...
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It sounds like the engine is now running on only one cylinder. As RED suggested, you may have broken a rod. Since you didn't run it long, it may be fixable if the broken pieces didn't sling around inside the engine and whip everything to pieces in the process. I've had several twin-cylinder engines come in, still running on one cylinder even though the other rod has broken.
I'd do this: Pop the plugs and do a compression test. If one cylinder has zero compression, a rod has likely broken on that side. Remove the head on that side and turn it over, watching the piston. No piston movement = snapped connecting rod.
On an engine as good as this one (I have a similar powerplant on my Gravely), it may be worth fixing. If you're up to the challenge, a teardown and visual inspection wouldn't hurt. I wouldn't junk it just yet.
I'd do this: Pop the plugs and do a compression test. If one cylinder has zero compression, a rod has likely broken on that side. Remove the head on that side and turn it over, watching the piston. No piston movement = snapped connecting rod.
On an engine as good as this one (I have a similar powerplant on my Gravely), it may be worth fixing. If you're up to the challenge, a teardown and visual inspection wouldn't hurt. I wouldn't junk it just yet.
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Thank You, Poke for the encouragement. I wanted to hear that it might still be saved.
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Poke, it appears that you hit the nail right on the head. No compression on the left side, and I put a doubled-over piece of tie wire in each of the spark plug holes, one at a time, to test for piston movement. The right side pushes the wire out, but no movement on the left side. Is it practical to try to replace the connecting rod with the engine still in the tractor, or must it be removed ? I suppose you have to drop the oil pan to get to the crankshaft. This is a craftsman garden tractor, I think it was the largest one they made 17 years ago. You didn't say anything about removing the engine to be able to remove the head. I think the transaxle is working okay now, so I feel like it would be worth while to try to repair the engine, if the internal damage is not too bad. Would you say this repair is too much for a fair jack-leg mechanic? If so, do you just happen to know of good, fair, honest, (that's a lot to ask) kohler mechanic in the southeast Florida area ? (Miami, Fort Lauderdale) Thank you very much for the help you have already given me.
The big question is...is the block damaged, and how bad is the crank journal scored up, 2ndly, how bad is the lower main/rod...because its not far behind, the top rod always starves first.
Its a substantial undertaking, its a very HEAVY engine, and it must be removed from the chassis, cleaned up, totally disassembled, and the crank cleaned and inspected, cylinders inspected, probably both rods replaced, possibly 1 piston, and both rings, while you are there...
Worst of it is, wont know how bad or how costly it will be until you get into it.
Its a substantial undertaking, its a very HEAVY engine, and it must be removed from the chassis, cleaned up, totally disassembled, and the crank cleaned and inspected, cylinders inspected, probably both rods replaced, possibly 1 piston, and both rings, while you are there...
Worst of it is, wont know how bad or how costly it will be until you get into it.
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Red, thank you for your response. I have never tried to do internal repairs on an engine. I did find excellent (?) disassembly directions on the kohler website where it is listed as retired. This raises the question, if I should actually manage to disassemble it, would I find parts to be available ? If no parts, then there's no point. Other than that, I don't have anything to lose. A local repair shop offers to pick it up for $100, & estimate repair cost for $40 (a wild guess I would suppose). If I were to give him a try, would you expect a $500 repair or more like a $1000 ? What might be reasonable, If it can be repaired at all ?
If it were brought to me...and someone asked me ot estimate the cost of repair on an engine that was run without oil and broke a rod...
id know that STD size rods are not available to my knowledge, only 10 under rods are, so the crank would need to be turned undersize, so lets figure...
30 minutes to remove the engine, 30 minutes to seal it and power wash it, dry it..
An hour to tear it down...
In it for 2 hours at this point..
Then 1hr to clean the block internals, inspect for damage, hone the cylinders out...and clean the block with warm soapy water....
figure 50 bucks to have the crank turned...and polished.
Hard parts...2 ring/piston sets...003"+ $130 (X2)
Rods $80 X2
Then about an hour, minimum for assembly, closer to 1.5 hours....
Then 45 minutes to put it back in the frame, fill it with fluids, filters, etc..
Oil, filters (oil, air, fuel) another 45 dollars..
So...lets tally it up...
Parts...
At least 500 with gaskets, seals, etc..
labor- about 350 dollars
Total before tax...approximately $850 dollars, possibly more, depending on extent of damage, such as governor, block, cam, oil pump, etc...
id know that STD size rods are not available to my knowledge, only 10 under rods are, so the crank would need to be turned undersize, so lets figure...
30 minutes to remove the engine, 30 minutes to seal it and power wash it, dry it..
An hour to tear it down...
In it for 2 hours at this point..
Then 1hr to clean the block internals, inspect for damage, hone the cylinders out...and clean the block with warm soapy water....
figure 50 bucks to have the crank turned...and polished.
Hard parts...2 ring/piston sets...003"+ $130 (X2)
Rods $80 X2
Then about an hour, minimum for assembly, closer to 1.5 hours....
Then 45 minutes to put it back in the frame, fill it with fluids, filters, etc..
Oil, filters (oil, air, fuel) another 45 dollars..
So...lets tally it up...
Parts...
At least 500 with gaskets, seals, etc..
labor- about 350 dollars
Total before tax...approximately $850 dollars, possibly more, depending on extent of damage, such as governor, block, cam, oil pump, etc...
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Red, thank you very much for an honest estimate. It's plain to see you are a WHIZ ! This is no job for me. The removal & disassembly in an hour & a half ! I was thinking in terms of weeks, if I did it myself. And I wouldn't know what to do next, if I ever reached that point. Your estimate would be something to consider, if you were going to do the work, even realizing that would be the very least, but that could easily be doubled, with someone else. This particular engine (MV18S-58560) seems to be pretty scarce, would you think there is another one that would be a direct replacement ? That seems to be the only alternative to making a giant planter out of my tractor. Switching engines (direct replacement) might be something I could do myself. I'm not asking you to do the research, I'm just asking if you happen to know, and/or what do you think? You have put a lot of time into my problem & I appreciate it ! Thank you, again.
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Boy, they sure are proud of their parts. NLA crankshaft would be $700+, and $40+ for the washer used to set clearance. Pistons for $150 a pop, with rings! Such a deal.
There are other options if you want to twirl some wrenches
http://shop.kustomlawnandgarden.com...garden.com/Kohler-M18-MV18-M18S-MV18S-18-HP-Rod-010-fits-52-067-68-s-kohm10.htm
Don't know anything about the supplier, but their 'built to spec' replacement rods, std and .010, are $59 bucks a pop.
You'd cut the replacement rod cost in half, and forego the machine shop charge IF your
journals would polish up and you could use std size.
Depending on condition, you could re-use the pistons and rings if !IF! you were not burning oil and were happy with power and fuel consumption.
If you were on unlimited budget, you can get a new engine for ~$1300 shipped from here:
http://www.kohler-engine-parts.opee...ines.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=781_72_121_374&products_id=7789
Cannot argue with the estimate Red threw together as he knows of what he speaks. He would have to replace all the noted parts as he would be standing behind his work and would have to eat any failure caused by re-using some of the parts, and has to recommend replacements based on labor costs. It does not make sense to keep the old pistons & rings if you spend all the money on labor to R&R and just replace the rods. The additional makes your engine almost 'rebuilt' except for the valves and cam.
If you wanted to fool around you could take it apart, inspect the connecting rod journals, and if withing tolerance, replace just the rods from the aftermarket source. A gasket set, and cleaning up the valves and adjusting clearance, and you'd have your old engine back at minimal cost, with a little more power from the valves sealing better.
BUT, you would have to invest the time and $'s instead of a professional at loaded labor rates. Remember, Red has to pay the rent and make a living at his chosen occupation. You can use the garage or carport, or even the back yard picnic table at no extra cost.
If you want to learn, take it all apart and fiddle with it. Buy a replacement, short term mower from c-list, and take your time. It is really encouraging to have something you took apart, messed with, and PBT {put back together} actually work. If you want to spring more bucks, you could replace the piston rings using the original pistons if you want.
tom
There are other options if you want to twirl some wrenches
http://shop.kustomlawnandgarden.com...garden.com/Kohler-M18-MV18-M18S-MV18S-18-HP-Rod-010-fits-52-067-68-s-kohm10.htm
Don't know anything about the supplier, but their 'built to spec' replacement rods, std and .010, are $59 bucks a pop.
You'd cut the replacement rod cost in half, and forego the machine shop charge IF your
journals would polish up and you could use std size.
Depending on condition, you could re-use the pistons and rings if !IF! you were not burning oil and were happy with power and fuel consumption.
If you were on unlimited budget, you can get a new engine for ~$1300 shipped from here:
http://www.kohler-engine-parts.opee...ines.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=781_72_121_374&products_id=7789
Cannot argue with the estimate Red threw together as he knows of what he speaks. He would have to replace all the noted parts as he would be standing behind his work and would have to eat any failure caused by re-using some of the parts, and has to recommend replacements based on labor costs. It does not make sense to keep the old pistons & rings if you spend all the money on labor to R&R and just replace the rods. The additional makes your engine almost 'rebuilt' except for the valves and cam.
If you wanted to fool around you could take it apart, inspect the connecting rod journals, and if withing tolerance, replace just the rods from the aftermarket source. A gasket set, and cleaning up the valves and adjusting clearance, and you'd have your old engine back at minimal cost, with a little more power from the valves sealing better.
BUT, you would have to invest the time and $'s instead of a professional at loaded labor rates. Remember, Red has to pay the rent and make a living at his chosen occupation. You can use the garage or carport, or even the back yard picnic table at no extra cost.
If you want to learn, take it all apart and fiddle with it. Buy a replacement, short term mower from c-list, and take your time. It is really encouraging to have something you took apart, messed with, and PBT {put back together} actually work. If you want to spring more bucks, you could replace the piston rings using the original pistons if you want.
tom
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tomwO, Thank you for your interest, comments, & suggestions. I believe I could do the removal, I might even be able to do the disassembly (although I expect something that has been together for 17 years will want to stay together), but then I wouldn't know what machine shop work would need to be done. I could see broken parts & try to get replacements, but wouldn't know which parts could be reused or what size parts to buy. Would I take the block & crank & other parts to a machine shop, & would they clean them up & tell me what size rods & rings, etc. to buy? Am I starting to get the idea ?
What part of Florida are you in?
Its not uncommon to find these fairly often sitting...with broken mower decks. The shells (usually 44 and 50") were VERY thin and prone to rust out and blow outs, and are generally unfixable or not worth replacing, so people just park em....
i had a guy offer one to me with no deck, with a, i think MV20 Kohler, for 150 bucks, running....but you know, with no deck, its just an engine on a frame to most people, no real value to resell.
Its not uncommon to find these fairly often sitting...with broken mower decks. The shells (usually 44 and 50") were VERY thin and prone to rust out and blow outs, and are generally unfixable or not worth replacing, so people just park em....
i had a guy offer one to me with no deck, with a, i think MV20 Kohler, for 150 bucks, running....but you know, with no deck, its just an engine on a frame to most people, no real value to resell.
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Red, I'm in the Fort Lauderdale area. I would love to pick up a running tractor. I'm familiar with the deck problem, I replaced my deck shell twice. It's 46", not many of them around. We have a John Deere dealer here, but he doesn't take trade-ins. Would you have any idea where I should look for such a deal (good engine/no deck) ? Where do garden tractors go to die ? I could consider going a couple of hundred miles to pick one up (at a real good price), even one with a worn out deck, if the engine were good. I just feel so bad about this tractor, having given me 17 years of good service and then I did such a stupid thing to ruin it. I have bought a used John Deere to cut the grass, but just am not able to give up on "old faithful". That's what my neighbor calls my Craftsman because he has gone through 1/2 dozen lawn tractors while I kept mine running.
Id go to craigslist, your local one...and make an ad in Farm and Garden "I need a Kohler Magnum Twin"...and see what response you get...
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Red, thanks for the Craigs List suggestion. I'll give that a try.
I just assumed it was like most of em, was changing the oil, got it drained, hopped on and took it out for a test ride and BANG....
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I can see how it could happen. In fact I did start a snowblower once with no oil in it. But immediately remembered and shut it down.
That day I had to go get oil,,I was out,,but only realized this after I drained it. Worked on something else,,and then came back to it later!!! and forgot,,oops.
It didnt hurt it. But since then,,, I pull the key,,and put a bed sheet over whatever I am changing the oil on.
It's a great habit to get into if you work on many machines at the same time!!
I was pulling plug wires,,but that has some CRS issues too!! :sidelaugh
The sheet method is fail proof!! If there is a sheet on it,,,don't start it!!!lol Works for other issues too. The sheet really means,,don't TOUCH it until you open up the mind and think where your at on it. :sidelaugh
That day I had to go get oil,,I was out,,but only realized this after I drained it. Worked on something else,,and then came back to it later!!! and forgot,,oops.
It didnt hurt it. But since then,,, I pull the key,,and put a bed sheet over whatever I am changing the oil on.
It's a great habit to get into if you work on many machines at the same time!!
I was pulling plug wires,,but that has some CRS issues too!! :sidelaugh
The sheet method is fail proof!! If there is a sheet on it,,,don't start it!!!lol Works for other issues too. The sheet really means,,don't TOUCH it until you open up the mind and think where your at on it. :sidelaugh
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