If it truly is a starter/generator, that would mean it's always engaged with the flywheel (or whatever), as when the engine is stopped and you apply power to it, it starts the engine, then when the engine is running, the engine spins it and it generates electricity. This is the 10000 ft overview of the system.

I don't know the details of how it works, could be a short or a bad connection or bad voltage regulator that's causing it to get fried after the engine starts?

Don't know how you would figure out the problem, as it sounds like an expensive proposition to hook it up on the tractor and it quickly fries itself (if it has). Perhaps first track down the wiring diagram for your tractor, then verify the wiring is good, then perhaps rig up a way to spin it independently from the engine (ie, perhaps driven by a electric motor somehow), so you can stop it quickly and use a multimeter on it to see what's going on?

 

I've been researching what would cause a generator to overheat. They say that a bad battery ground or a faulty voltage regulator will do that. The original voltage regulator on this tractor appears to be a 'Delco -Remy' two unit three terminal type (P/N 1118981).

I'm now thinking of replacing the voltage regulator if I can get one but I'd like to hear more opinions on the issue first. I'm guessing that others have had the same problem and I am hopng that someone will chime in with a solution...

 

Not sure if this will work with yours but I think it will and it is easy enough to try. I just tested it on my 1966 Simplicity 707. Disconnect the positive battery cable. Put a jumper cable between that cable and the battery. Start the tractor and then remove the jumper cable from the battery. The tractor should stay running. And obviously that will answer your question of "is it continually trying to start at the same time it is charging". No power to try and start. Only difference in my setup is I don't have a solenoid, as it is push button start, but in theory it should be the same thing.

 

I can't do anyhting until I get another starter/generator. The 'new' Wilson unit is now completely pooched and it won't even turn over the engine. Thankfully my local parts jobber is going to replace it under warranty. The plan is now to replace the Delco voltage regulator before installing another new starter/generator...

 

I own a 1967 cub cadet and it has wiring like a house on it that is probably what you need for your tractor.

 

I recommend replacing all your heavy gauge wires, both negative and positive, from the battery to the starter and generator to include any engine ground cables. I've seen these corrode and the extra resistance causes anything they are connected to not operate properly.

 

You might take the old voltage regulator to an automotive ignition shop. I once took my alternator and vr to one of these places and they tested both for free. If your old vr is ok, then the problem is somewhere else.

When you put the new unit in, I'd suggest installing the jumper cable @Smalljob suggested and keep a hand on the starter/generator. If it starts getting too warm or if you see any sparks, pull the plug immediately.

 

I've already cleaned-up the heavy gauge cables and re-soldered the terminal ends as necessary. I am currently looking for a new voltage regulator. I also intend to replace the harness/wiring between the voltage regulator and the new starter/ generator...

 

While it is "normal" for these units to run hot (one of the manuals linked below claims up to 350 degrees is typical !),it is likely the voltage regulator was overcharging your battery or possibly it was still in the "start" mode when it was running..

Taking care of your Delco Remy Starter Generators

Over the years many garden tractor manufactures used these Delco Remy starter generators & Regulators so I figured I would do a little write up on taking care of your Regulator and Starter to prolong its life and keep your machine running trouble free. There were two common types of starters. A...

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Thanks Tractor-Holic for posting that information. It was most helpful! Reading it I found that I had initially misidentified the voltage regulator that I need. The VR on my Simplicity is actually a 'Delco-Remy 1119003. I almost ordered the wrong one! Thank you for your help...

 

There's been a disappointing development. The replacement starter/generator arrived at my local parts jobber today. It arrived damaged. The casting was busted. It was obviously dropped during shipping. My parts jobber said "sorry...that was the last one" and they gave me a refund.

I've now got another jobber trying to hunt down another starter/generator. Being in Canada, stuff like this seems inordinately very hard to find. If nobody can come up with a starter/generator I'll have to scrap the whole project. Are other tractor guys here in Canada experiencing the same trouble getting parts???

 

Update:

Well I finally got all the right parts in but the nightmare is only just beginning. I now realize that a previous owner has screwed up the wiring badly. It's a real mess. I found wires spliced to the wrong connections and other s wires cut and go nowhere. It would help if someone

 

It would help if someone could show me a wiring diagram for this tractor's ignition switch. That's where I need to start to sort out this disaster.

Simplicity Sovereign 716 Hydro

 

S terminal: purple wire to pto.
B : red wire to ammeter
R : yellow wire to solenoid thru a rectifier
I : black wire to coil thru a wire harness
A : red or black wire to terminal board under dash

 

Thanks for the help Cat385B. The wiring harnesses on my tractor have been 'modified' from factory so the colour codes don't really match. I have however managed to get it all sorted out using a wiring diagram I found for a Simplicity 7016H. I worked on the assumption that the 7016H might be wired the same as my 716H. So far so good. I did a 'test run' and I think that the issue has been resolved. The tractor starts and runs. When charging, the generator out put is 14VDC...

 

I was never really able to determine for certain what caused the original starter/generator to fail but the new starter/generator seems to be working properly...so far. It didn't heat up after running and charging for several minutes either.

I installed a new battery cable (POS) and rewired the harness going from the voltage regulator to the starter/generator. New components are as follows:

Starter/Generator - Wilson - part number 92-01-3144
Voltage Regulator - Wilson - part number 62-01-3713
Solenoid Relay - Standard Motor Products - part number SS581

Thanks again for all the help everyone. It is most sincerely appreciated...

 

My pleasure to help ,hope those links had the info you needed..

Personally I'm not much of a starter/generator fan,having at least 3 tractors that have them (Sears Suburbans),they are limited in their ability to crank a cold engine over,or charge a weak battery back up without overheating,being a sealed unit..one of the worst things to do to them is just jump start a tractor with a "too dead battery" that couldn't start it alone--the generator goes to maximum output in attempt to recharge the dead battery,(all of its not so impressive 15 amps!),and can fry the regulator in the process..
I suspect this is what wounds or kills most of them..

This is why Tecumseh started using a car type geared starter after 1972 or so...and used a charging coil under the flywheel to recharge the battery (which is still too low output for many accessories you may want to add,like a winch or lighting,etc)...but at least those starters crank them over very well..

I have one Suburban I put a GM alternator on,integral regulator type from the '70's...it was almost too easy,it was able to be mounted right in front of the right footrest using original bolt locations ,I used the Chevy slotted bracket and only had to make a spacer so the belt aligned with the engine pulley,and a longer bolt...now I can use my 1500 lb winch to lift a bucket/plow device I made,without fear of overloading a starter/generator or draining the (too) small battery ..wish Roper had made the battery tray big enough to fit a group 24 car battery,but your limited to a garden tractor sized battery..

I have had thoughts about using a old Ford starter I have that had the bendix drive "backwards" compared to most starters--after removing the bendix,you have a roughly 9/16" shaft about 6" long you could put a pulley or sprocket on (I have made a hand held starter out of this type before,like dragsters use,to start small engines!)..

I was thinking if I put a centrifugal clutch for a v-belt on the starter,I could mount it in place of the starter/generator without too much difficulty,and use that to start the engine..

It would whip a one lunger over like gangbusters,and the clutch would only allow the starter to spin the engine after it got up enough rpms,and free wheel in the other direction,so the engine cant spin the starter constantly..
I have all these parts,I just haven't meesed around yet to see if it would be possible or practical..
I think it would be an upgrade,and a way around relying on old starter/generators & regulators that are getting harder to find and are costly....

 

"Costly" is right! I spent nearly $800.00 (Dollars-Canadian) on this fix! I also took PA318Guy's advice and replaced both battery cables. Those cables were cheap and readily available so I thought that the new cables would give me 'peace of mind'. I just can't afford blowing up another starter/generator.

Note too that in order to prevent corrosion, I coated the BATT ground cable at the chassis connection with a product called 'Shoe Goo'. This is really tough stuff! Has anybody else tried using 'Shoe Goo' on electrical connections?

My biggest worry now is that I never really did determine what actually caused the original starter/generator to fail. If this new starter/generator fails, I am at a total loss as to what the problem could be. Here's a pic of the new installation...

 

Note too that in order to prevent corrosion, I coated the BATT ground cable at the chassis connection with a product called 'Shoe Goo'. This is really tough stuff! Has anybody else tried using 'Shoe Goo' on electrical connections?

I'm familiar with shoe goo, and it is both a good and bad idea to use it. Many folks coat electrical terminals with dielectric grease - simply an nonconducting grease, then put them together. Any electrical connection passes current at low resistance only if you have the appropriate clean surface area and sufficient pressure to assure continuous metal to metal contact. Dielectric grease is an insulator, so smearing it on electrical connections before mating the connectors will cause any electrical engineer to have heart palpitations. This seems to be more or less standard practice in automotive and motorcycle systems, however.

When you slide the connectors together after applying the grease, said di-grease is scraped off the mating parts by the design of the connector. This might not happen with the old round clamp-on-a-post battery terminal. Look at a greased old fashioned knife switch (or modern general purpose knife switch). As the blade moves between the compression contacts, it is 'wiped' clean.

Back to shoe goo. This is a urethane based rubber (I think) and as you said is tough stuff. It might not 'wipe' and will serve to insulate the connection, causing higher resistance and eventual failure. If you smeared it on after you made clean, tight connections, then it will work perfectly to keep moisture away from the connection. The downside now is removing that stuff next time you need to change the battery.

 

@ Tractor Holic

You had mentioned earlier in this thread that these generators can typically run up to 350 degrees F. Thanks for that info. That's good to know. This new generator ran 'hot to the touch' on the last test run. I checked the tempurature using a laser thermometer and it got up to 145 degrees F. I will assume that that's okay. I should maybe contact Wilson and find out what they say the acceptable operating tempertures for these generators is...

 

You could call Norman at Isavetractors.com.....he knows a lot about them and is a good guy...he answers his phone and will have a conversation with you

 

@MARK (LI)

Thanks for that suggestion. I will most certainly keep it in mind. I have dealt with 'ISaveTractors' before and they seem to be really good people..

 

So I contacted 'Wilson Electric' reference the operating temperatures of my generator. Wilson tells me that the normal temperature range is in the neighbourhood of 100-135 degrees F. They said that a "low battery" will cause a generator to run hot...

 

Hi all, Very interesting posts - I just looked at this and thought I would add a few cents worth. I just finished rehab of a 7016 6-speed with similar issues. P.O.s had rewired and jerry-rigged the whole S/G system and it did not charge. I'm not sure how it worked for starting, but it did.
First off, You said at the beginning you have a 716H Simplicity tractor. That designation would have been a 1977 Allis-Chalmers tractor with a Kohler engine. AC and Simplicity tractors of that era were nearly identical except for the engines - AC=Kohler and Simplicity=Briggs. The Briggs engines used the SG system and the Kohlers used a geared starter and an alternator ring on the flywheel. So, you might want to research the tractor number if you can find it - in front of the seat on the transmission tunnel. You might have a re-power if it's an A/C or mis-labelled (repainted?) if it's a Simplicity. After 43 years, who knows what has been done to it. See the chart below for comparison part numbers:

A/C 716H

1690211 (SN1001-2200)

Simplicity 7016

1690202

16 HP, Hydro, ML

Yr mfg 1977

In any case, you obviously have the starter generator system. The voltage regulator is the brain of that system, that "knows" if it is being used as a motor for starting, and controls output when it is being used as a generator when running. If the tractor has been modified, there is no telling what PO's have done. My tractor had a totally screwed up wiring setup - non-functioning regulator, heavy duty cutoff switch because the battery drained (duh-not charging), totally mis-wired. The ignition switch was original, but no colors matched, so I had to identify the correct wiring diagram (found several) Identify the correct functions (inconsistent switch diagrams). replace the regulator and completely rewire the system.
Your SG should not run hot unless it is working overtime charging - using headlights, electric lift, bad battery, wired incorrectly, etc. Also be aware of pos/neg poles, could be set up backwards.
Here's a before and after pic of my 7016.

 

I call my tractor a Simplicity 716H but I guess it's really a 'Simplicity Sovereign 716 Hydro'. Except for the seat and the rear tires it is a 'factory' Simplicity tractor as far as I can tell. I looked all over the tractor for a serial and/or model number when I acquired it but found nothing. I'm guessing that it might be a late 'seventies' model...

 

I call my tractor a Simplicity 716H but I guess it's really a 'Simplicity Sovereign 716 Hydro'.

Since I last replied I have learned that at least some of the AC 716's had Briggs engines. The hood decals on your tractor are inconsistent with Simplicity models - they are 7000 series. A 7016 Simplicity of that year would also have had fender stripes. My guess is that you have an AC 716 tractor that someone either painted the hood or replaced it with a Simplicity one and added the 716 Hydro decal. Repro decals are available for both models.
Anyway - the chassis are the same - made in the same factory, with different paint essentially. So you could use model number 1690202 (Simplicity) or 1690211 (AC) and find the parts and books you need to fix and maintain it.
Nice tractor!

 

I have used "Shoo-Goo" on some wiring to insulate screw terminals so if something touched them they wouldn't get shorted to ground,and on one of my Sears Suburbans, mice chewed the entire insulation off the spark plug wire under the blower housing,leaving only stranded stainless steel!..

Since the wire is "made into" the expensive and no longer available solid state ignition coil/module,I was very angry and bummed out--however,the engine was still running fine,I only found out the wire had been chewed when the engine got so hot from the mouse nest in the blower housing it caught the grease & paint on it on fire while mowing (after only 2 passes from a cold start!)...luckily I was near a garden hose and was able to put it out before any real damage was done..

I took a piece of Romex house wire and stripped the outer insulation off it and slid it over the spark plug wire,and was going to pump it full of RTV silicone gasket maker I had--but the tube had hardened up like a rock,and the only other thing similar I had was the Shoo-Goo,and I figured anything is better than a bare wire,so I pumped the insulation full of it till it came out both ends,and let it dry for a day..next day it was completely dry and felt like real rubber,and so far it has held up well!..

I need to get more Shoo-Goo as I have a nearly new pair of winter boots that had one sole start peeling off ,they were not cheap ones either,"Irish Setter" ones with steel toes,made by Red Wing..
I do not like Red Wing shoes any more,this was the second pair I have that were very poor quality--I bought a pair of their "WORX" boots,their "economy" line,and wore them only a half dozen times,and left them sitting on a wooden shelf in my room,they were my "dress boots",that I'd wear to concerts,etc,not work in my garage with,I had other pairs I used for that-.

Not long ago I went to use them,and they were "stuck" to the shelf,and now the soles are coming apart in chunks,it almost feels like they were made of soft rubber like pipe insulation or weather stripping--many chunks are coming off,and they'll be junk in no time..for almost $80 you'd think they would hold up better,and they do not "warranty" their "WORX" line of boots,or the Irish Setter either,so says the shoe store that sells Red Wings (I bought these elsewhere,so they wouldn't do anything for me anyways)...
I have gotten more use out of cheap Herman Survivors from Walmart that only cost $35,and "barely used" boots from a flea market for under $5!....no more "expensive" shoes for me!..they are all made in China probably regardless of who's name is on them too..

 

@ZTT42

I understand that there was an AC 716H and there's the Simplicity 7016 but there seems to be evidence that there was also a Simplicity 716H too (model number 1690014)! Apparently it was a '700 Series' tractor. Very interesting...

Simplicity 716H, 16Hp Hydro | 1690014 | eReplacementParts.com

Need to fix your 1690014 716H, 16Hp Hydro? Use our part lists, interactive diagrams, accessories and expert repair advice to make your repairs easy.

www.ereplacementparts.com

 

I understand that there was an AC 716H and there's the Simplicity 7016 but there seems to be evidence that there was also a Simplicity 716H too (model number 1690014)! Apparently it was a '700 Series' tractor. Very interesting...

Simplicity did produce some 700-series red tractors in the early 1960's, but they were 7 HP FDT (Foot-Dragger-Tractor, no running boards) tractors with manual transmissions. Yours is a RBT (Running Board Tractor) or "large frame" series produced by both AC and Simplicity in the 70's. The 1690014 model number keys out to a 716H AC tractor with a Kohler engine produced from 1974-1976.
The Simp 7000 and AC 700's are so compatible that its interesting to speculate what has been swapped, traded, replaced, repaired and hacked over their life span. My 7016 had no less than 4 different paint colors I found when I stripped the hood.

I'm getting this information from Simplicity Mfg charts available over on the Simple TrACtors website that has a fund of information about these machines.

1690006

7016 B & S Simplicity

1974, 1975, 1976 years produced

1690014

716H Kohler Allis Chalmers

16 HP Hydro