[Whirly]

Well, I did the straw thing. I think what you are trying to get at is that the water went right past the hole. However, that really wasn't me result. I did get water through the straw, past the hole, but I also sucked a lot of air too.

do the straw thing again.. but this time suck real slow.. remember a vacuum or mechanical pump moves a heck of a lot less than u can.. & also mke sure ur lil hole stays open a tiny bit..

 

[Smolenski7]

Ok, I feel like a kid but I did it again. It's harder than you think to remove the pin and suck water slowly at the same time.

This time the water came out of the hole a little, and I also got a lot of air. Not sure if that is what you are looking for, but that's what I got. Thanks.

 

[Whirly]

Ok, I feel like a kid but I did it again. It's harder than you think to remove the pin and suck water slowly at the same time.

This time the water came out of the hole a little, and I also got a lot of air. Not sure if that is what you are looking for, but that's what I got. Thanks.

well that proves gas will do the same if a crack or a hole is in ur gas line.. since the gas is gettin to ur carb.. I think u need to stop blammin the gas line for problems.. it seams u dream up all these ideas.. but can't do any more thinkin on them to reason them out..

 

[mla2ofus]

X2.
Mike

 

[Whirly]

X2.
Mike

THANKS.. it's like lookin at a pic but can't see the object in that pic.. sometimes I think myself & others here on MTF have to treat guys like they r wee kids.. gotta open up their minds & show them everything..

end of my rant..

 

[craftsmanmowerfreak]

last year i was working on a simplicity gt. issue was surging badly and stalled out. after checking everthing over and replaced badly shot plugs for the guy new fuel filter. fired it back up ran the same way. so i told him i am going to try something. see issue started when they ran it low on gas. so i took hose off before fuel pump used a air compressor blew back towards tank. it had the fuel line going in at top of tank with a pick up tube. well i got fuel flowing again hooked it back up and it ran really good didnt do it again. try this if this is problem pull tank and clean it

 

[Smolenski7]

Good news. I'm not totally ready to call this problem solved, but I'm pretty darn close.

If it is solved, it was a combination of the carburetor, governor, and throttle all needing adjustment. The first thing I did was adjust the governor. I moved the spring from the 2nd position down the the 4th. This decreased its sensitivity.

Then I went out and bought a photo digital tachometer and adjusted the low idle speed. It should be about 1200rpm, however, it was around 1350rpm. At that point I put the engine at full WOT and measured the rpm's again. It was about 4400rpm. That's obviously way too high.
I then adjusted the throttle cable so that whenever I pushed up on the lever the engine would max out at 3550rpm.

So, I think the problem was that whenever the machine would go under load at such a high rpm, the governor would go hay-wire trying to compensate. By reducing the sensitivity and bringing the rpm's down to spec., the governor is much happier and doesn't need to compensate any longer.

The reason I am not ready to call the problem solved, finally, is because I really want to wait a day or two and see what happens to the surging at a cold start. I'm optimistic though.

 

[Whirly]

Good news. I'm not totally ready to call this problem solved, but I'm pretty darn close.

If it is solved, it was a combination of the carburetor, governor, and throttle all needing adjustment. The first thing I did was adjust the governor. I moved the spring from the 2nd position down the the 4th. This decreased its sensitivity.

Then I went out and bought a photo digital tachometer and adjusted the low idle speed. It should be about 1200rpm, however, it was around 1350rpm. At that point I put the engine at full WOT and measured the rpm's again. It was about 4400rpm. That's obviously way too high.
I then adjusted the throttle cable so that whenever I pushed up on the lever the engine would max out at 3550rpm.

So, I think the problem was that whenever the machine would go under load at such a high rpm, the governor would go hay-wire trying to compensate. By reducing the sensitivity and bringing the rpm's down to spec., the governor is much happier and doesn't need to compensate any longer.

The reason I am not ready to call the problem solved, finally, is because I really want to wait a day or two and see what happens to the surging at a cold start. I'm optimistic though.

if the WOT was 4400 RPM.. adjustin the throttle cable will not stop the governor makin the engine go to 4400 RPM.

 

[Smolenski7]

if the WOT was 4400 RPM.. adjustin the throttle cable will not stop the governor makin the engine go to 4400 RPM.

Explain.

If the engine doesn't go above 3600rpm and the surging has stopped, how did I make it worse?

 

[Lance Skene]

By adjusting the throttle cable to limit the rpm will result in the throttle body not opening fully at WOT, that may stop the surging for now but it also means you no longer have full hp when required. I would say the original problem is more likely a worn governor gear which is quite common on the K-Command series, ther are a plastic cone shaped gear and as the wear the clips that retain them on the shaft fail which allows the gear to float up/down on the shaft and that creates the surging affect which can be more noticable at certain rpm. Its a cheap repair but you need the engine upside down on a workbench to pull the bottom pan off to access the gear.

 

[JP Savage]

Smolenski7 2006 Simplicity with a 23HP Kohler Command Pro engine.

You can go to Kohler web site locate and download the service manual in PDF form for your particular engine. You will need the model numbers off of the engine tag.
It will outline the procedure for setting the WOT top rpm.
That is correct way to limit top rpm.
On my Command CV20 I needed a long shaft (18") flat blade screw driver, a 6mm open end wrench, the laser tach, and my wife's smaller hands to get the wrench in place.

 

[Smolenski7]

By adjusting the throttle cable to limit the rpm will result in the throttle body not opening fully at WOT, that may stop the surging for now but it also means you no longer have full hp when required. I would say the original problem is more likely a worn governor gear which is quite common on the K-Command series, ther are a plastic cone shaped gear and as the wear the clips that retain them on the shaft fail which allows the gear to float up/down on the shaft and that creates the surging affect which can be more noticable at certain rpm. Its a cheap repair but you need the engine upside down on a workbench to pull the bottom pan off to access the gear.

That's an awesome explanation. Thank you so much. :thThumbsU

However, there is no way I'm comfortable enough to pull the engine, flip it up-side-down, and remove the pan to access the gear you mentioned. So, I did a little math just to see what my HP would be. There has to be a flaw in my thinking somewhere, so please correct my mistake.

According to the specs for my engine (this is not the exact engine, but a newer model of the CV23) it produces 35.8 ft/lb. of torque. I assume that is at WOT.

So, if Horsepower = Torque * RPM / 5252.113, that would give my CV23 a HP rating of just over 24 HP in reality. Not sure why it's over 23HP, but that's how the math comes out.

I think I can safely assume that I altered the throttle so that it is at 80% of WOT. It's probably a bit more. Is it safe to then assume that the torque would then fall to 80% of 35.8 ft/lbs? That would be 28.64 ft/lbs.

Plugging 28.64 ft/lbs into the above equation, that would mean my engine is producing just a hair under 20HP at 3600 RPM's. Although the source of the problem is not fixed, 20HP would be plenty enough to mow a level piece of land in suburbia until that gear is replaced.

So, I guess I have 2 questions:
1. What is the flaw in my calculation?

2. If the engine is not surging and the RPM's are down to spec., is there additional damage that can be done?

 

[Whirly]

That's an awesome explanation. Thank you so much. :thThumbsU

However, there is no way I'm comfortable enough to pull the engine, flip it up-side-down, and remove the pan to access the gear you mentioned. So, I did a little math just to see what my HP would be. There has to be a flaw in my thinking somewhere, so please correct my mistake.

According to the specs for my engine (this is not the exact engine, but a newer model of the CV23) it produces 35.8 ft/lb. of torque. I assume that is at WOT.

So, if Horsepower = Torque * RPM / 5252.113, that would give my CV23 a HP rating of just over 24 HP in reality. Not sure why it's over 23HP, but that's how the math comes out.

I think I can safely assume that I altered the throttle so that it is at 80% of WOT. It's probably a bit more. Is it safe to then assume that the torque would then fall to 80% of 35.8 ft/lbs? That would be 28.64 ft/lbs.

Plugging 28.64 ft/lbs into the above equation, that would mean my engine is producing just a hair under 20HP at 3600 RPM's. Although the source of the problem is not fixed, 20HP would be plenty enough to mow a level piece of land in suburbia until that gear is replaced.

So, I guess I have 2 questions:
1. What is the flaw in my calculation?

2. If the engine is not surging and the RPM's are down to spec., is there additional damage that can be done?

doin all that math will not make any improvements to the gear.. in fact it will only get worse & ur HP will go down to a dead stop when it completely fails.. the result then could b also a total failure of the rods in the engine..

on edit.. in my mind with ur testin u didn't put that engine under a full load.. an engine can run a lot less of the throttle plate degree (as compared to the travel limits of it) when it is NOT under a load.. it doesn't take as much power to make the engine turn WOT RPM as compared to a fully loaded engine..

second edit.. the figures u used were of a fully loaded engine.. ur math didn't include the degree of the throttle plate when u tested it.. it could b open only 20% to obtain the WOT RPM when it is not under a load..

math on paper is not like havin that engine hooked up to a test machine which shows the RPM & available HP it is producin..

 

[Lance Skene]

Pulling the engine and replacing the governor gear is actually quite a simple procedure, and everything can only go back one way... the right way, take plenty of pics as you pull it apart, take your time and keep your work area clean. With you messing around changing factory settings your very likely to cause engine damage created by a poor mixture, and that will most likely happen when you can least afford being without the tractor.

The last gear I bought was $32cad, only other thing you need is some rtv silicone, and you will be able to do it in one day.... Ive done a few so I can change one out and have the tractor mowing grass in about 3 hours.

Even if it turns out you didnt need to swap it YET those gears do typically wear out so its preventative service and you'll be a little more experienced in the end. Alot of people dont like the Command engine but most do exactly what you've done, when it starts to act up they change everything except the most commonly worn part in the engine, and then they blame Kohler, IMO, its actually a good mower engine IF properly maintained.

 

[Whirly]

Pulling the engine and replacing the governor gear is actually quite a simple procedure, and everything can only go back one way... the right way, take plenty of pics as you pull it apart, take your time and keep your work area clean. With you messing around changing factory settings your very likely to cause engine damage created by a poor mixture, and that will most likely happen when you can least afford being without the tractor.

The last gear I bought was $32cad, only other thing you need is some rtv silicone, and you will be able to do it in one day.... Ive done a few so I can change one out and have the tractor mowing grass in about 3 hours.

Even if it turns out you didnt need to swap it YET those gears do typically wear out so its preventative service and you'll be a little more experienced in the end. Alot of people dont like the Command engine but most do exactly what you've done, when it starts to act up they change everything except the most commonly worn part in the engine, and then they blame Kohler, IMO, its actually a good mower engine IF properly maintained.

I love those Kohler engines.. bet I have a dozen of them in mowers here.. I have a 15 hp single that has had the snot beat out of it.. it came to me that way.. it does need the gear changed.. but It's been actin up for at least 4 years now.. it only had a job of mowin a hillside.. that mower is slated to b sold as is.. & as a parts mower..(the weights on it will b installed on another mower for it's new job)..

 

[Smolenski7]

Pulling the engine and replacing the governor gear is actually quite a simple procedure, and everything can only go back one way... the right way, take plenty of pics as you pull it apart, take your time and keep your work area clean. With you messing around changing factory settings your very likely to cause engine damage created by a poor mixture, and that will most likely happen when you can least afford being without the tractor.

So let me just clarify the problem before I even consider making this repair on my own. The engine surges at start up, then after waiting for a few minutes, the surging will go away even under load. The tractor runs great from that point on. I changed the the hole in which the governor spring was located and adjusted the throttle a bit, now the problem has "gone away." You are saying that the problem's root cause is a bad governor gear and that this will fix the surging at start up. Is this something you've seen before on these engines?

 

[Smolenski7]

Also, and I don't mean this to sound like a teenager with an attitude so please don't take it that way, but why would a manufacturer allow for such easy modifications like altering the throttle by simply tightening or loosening a small nut, and for the governor's sensitivity to be changed by moving the position of a spring, if making these changes could have such devastating effects on the engine?

 

[Whirly]

Also, and I don't mean this to sound like a teenager with an attitude so please don't take it that way, but why would a manufacturer allow for such easy modifications like altering the throttle by simply tightening or loosening a small nut, and for the governor's sensitivity to be changed by moving the position of a spring, if making these changes could have such devastating effects on the engine?

all engines have to have a final adjustment AFTER the engine is assembled.. it also makes assembly easier..

 

[mla2ofus]

Also, and I don't mean this to sound like a teenager with an attitude so please don't take it that way, but why would a manufacturer allow for such easy modifications like altering the throttle by simply tightening or loosening a small nut, and for the governor's sensitivity to be changed by moving the position of a spring, if making these changes could have such devastating effects on the engine?

On setting the governor you need to be educated about what you're attempting to do. As for moving the gov spring to a different hole, you are changing the governed RPM either up or down depending on where you move it to. You seem to do well w/ math, but I think you need to educate yourself on these things instead of stumbling around in the dark hoping you do it right. No offense meant, just stating my opinion. I think a majority of us here went to the school of hard knocks long before the web to gain the education on these small engines. You have access to some good teachers here so don't be afraid to ask questions about something your not sure of. The manufacturers have to assume someone knows what they're doing regarding governor adjustments. The EPA, in their infinite wisdom, decided no one knows how to properly adjust a carburetor so know we have carbs w/ no adjustment except maybe idle speed adjustment.
If your engine only surges until it warms up find something more important to fret about.
Mike

 

[Lance Skene]

Also, and I don't mean this to sound like a teenager with an attitude so please don't take it that way, but why would a manufacturer allow for such easy modifications like altering the throttle by simply tightening or loosening a small nut, and for the governor's sensitivity to be changed by moving the position of a spring, if making these changes could have such devastating effects on the engine?

Dont worry, Im not making any assumtions, and its near impossible to diagnose a problem thru these forums so like everyone else here Im just giving an opinion based on my own experience... and Im not a mechanic by trade... but I did start working on farm equipment in the 70s when my Pop ran a Cockshutt dealership and I buy/repair/sell 8-12 garden tractors or other small engine equip every year so Im usually pretty good(or maybe just lucky) at fixin them.

Many of the parts are designed for use on several differant machines that may have differant carbs and linkage setups which often need to be setup differantly accordingly, so they arent really meant to be user adjustable, its possible for something to vibrate loose and come out of adjustment or dirty but generally if an engine isnt running properly the problem is not going to be related to something like the governor or carb linkages. Even the jet settings should not need to be adjusted although if the jet is dirty adjusting them can improve how an engine runs... but in that case the carb should be removed for proper cleaning. Most of the time if a small engine that wont run properly within the factory specs there is something worn or dirty causing the problem and these days with so many plastic parts being used its become very common to have problems with equip thats not even very old, things are not built to last 30+ years without maintainance. In a Kohler Command that plastic gear is usually one of the first parts to wear out, but it is cheap and it is easily replaced, theres a small thrust washer under the gear that can be easily lost if it happens to stick to the old gear when it comes off but otherwise theres nothing to worry about. Just find pdf exploded views of your tractor and engine before you start... Im sure you'ld be fine.