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Do I need 3-point position control...?

17K views 20 replies 11 participants last post by  StevenDeere  
#1 ·
I have been using a 2305 with 200cx for 2-years now to move fill dirt and firewood around the property and it has served well. I have also been collecting the proper sized rear implements to do some brush cutting and grading. I'm going to need to use a box blade to maintain our 400-feet of gravel drive soon and am considering upgrading to a larger frame / more HP tractor with position control. I don't think I will start over and get larger attachments since I can use what I have - and the 2305 has done everything I've needed it to do although it's been taxed a couple of times.... I WANT a bigger tractor - but may not NEED one....but will I need position control to do the proper job grading...?

I'm looking at either a 2025r or 2032r as replacement ... For us $$ is always a factor.... I really like the 2032r but could probably get by with a 2025r...?

Let's discuss this.....
 
#2 ·
I can't answer your question regarding "needing" position control, but if you are staying green, I though both of the models in the 2 Family had it...So your choice would be made on other considerations...like horsepower...
 
#3 ·
Yes - I understand they both have position control. Whether or not I need it for the tasks I described is actually going to be more of the deciding factor because I don't really think I NEED more horsepower - I just WANT more horsepower. The 2305 really has done everything around the acreage that's been required - although I haven't started drag the box blade or skidding trees - yet...
I do small amounts of FEL work and really not much digging...
 
#6 ·
You know this " position control" touted by John Deere is nothing more than a cheap piece of plastic that folds over and stops the lever from going any further right? Its literally a 25 cent piece of plastic. My old farmall tractors from the 50s have the same thing accept its a butterfly nut your tighten down to stop the lever wherever you want it. You could prob rig something up to make your lever stop wherever you want it set and have position control. Heck you could prob go to your dealer and buy the little thing and put it on your tractor. It just fits into the lever tracks and you tighten it down
 
#7 ·
Johnnyreb,

I think there is more to the position control feature than just that "cheap piece of plastic." That piece of plastic is only a guide to set the relative position of the lift control lever, to allow accurate repeatability of height adjustment. The real guts of position control are actually at the hydraulic valve apparatus, which has feedback linkage to automatically return the valve to a neutral position when the control lever reaches the height stop set by the cheap piece of plastic.

Think about it -- if it was only the 25 cent piece of plastic that created position control, wouldn't every 3PH have it? :fing32:
 
#8 ·
Yes, position control is very, very different than the plain rockshaft control on the 2305. We did a long-term test on a 3038E last year with a boxblade. The 3038E has position control and it worked fabulously with the boxblade. If you are going up in size, and as long as you don't need a backhoe or mid-mount mower as well as can afford the few extra dollars, take a look at the 3038E -- it's one amazing tractor for the buck. :)
 
#11 · (Edited)
"A non-position control valve does not return to neutral even when the lever stops. It stays open until the lever is physically returned to the neutral position. (Physically releasing the lever usually allows the lever to spring back to neutral.")


OK i see where your coming from here. Yes that is true when you have a lift system like my X485 or any machine that has a lever that sits in a neutral position physically. Those are systems you pull down for down, and up for up and when you let go they go back to center or neutral ( Such as my 318 and the levers shown in your avatar).

But on most Farm and Utility machines they do not have that sort of lever system. They have a sliding lever that will stop anywhere you let go of it. This is the context of what the conversation is about. ON your garden tractors, and mine, you are 100% correct. ON a 1025R or any tractor with a sliding lever for operating the lift system it works just the way i said it does. You let go of the lever and it stays where you left it and essentially that becomes " neutral".



Fun debate....but we been on 2 different pages here lol :thThumbsU
 
#12 · (Edited)
WATCH THIS VIDEO....IT EXPLAINS ALL. The Kubota has the lift lever system that your referring to and are correct about. You are also correct that the Mahindra lift works the same as the Kubota. But the John Deere simply has a sliding lever system which has been on most farm tractors for 50+ years. Theres nothing spectacular about it. It just stops in the same place overtime because you have a sliding lever and a item to stop the lever wherever your please. I have no idea why kubota and Mahindra wouldn't go with the same thing. ANY tractor with sliding levers can stop the lift in the same place every time by installing a stop piece in the lever tracks or rigging something to make the lever stop wherever you set it. Again, the Majority of UTILITY and FARM tractors have this lever system including my 1953 Farmall. Position Control is nothing more than a sliding lever system with a cheap piece of plastic to stop the lever where desired.

I couldn't help but laugh when the guy in the JD commercial says the 1025R " Remembers" where you set the lift LOL


 
#14 ·
Johnny,

Again, the reason your "sliding lever system" works the way it does is because it is connected to a Position Control Valve. The feedback linkage in the Position Control Valve is what allows the "sliding lever [to] stop anywhere you let go of it." If you did not have a Position Control Valve, it would not behave like that.

I understand that Position Control is common on larger tractors. But until fairly recently, no SCUTs offered position control on the 3PH (I believe we first saw it on the CC/Yanmar SC-series) because it is expensive to add and it is not considered a necessity. As JDF mentioned, his 2305 does not have it. Kubota offers a QIV, which is a step up from the standard valve but not as precise/repeatable as Position Control.

On JD's 1-Series, only the 1025r has the Position Control Valve. The 1023e has the same "sliding lever" in the identical location in the fender slot as the 1025r, but it does not have a position control 3PH, because the sliding lever is not connected to a position control valve. Instead, the lever must be manually returned to neutral to stop the hydraulic flow to the rockshaft cylinder.

A Position Control Valve is more expensive so adds cost. That is why JD only offers it on its premium model in the 1-Series, the 1025r. But it is not the "cheap piece of plastic", and it is not the "sliding lever system" that gives you Position Control. The sliding lever is what you use to actuate the Position Control Valve, and the cheap piece of plastic guides you back to the same height/depth after raising the 3PH implement. But it is the (pricey) Position Control Valve that gets you the precise control of the 3PH.
 
#17 ·
:sidelaugh

Me too -- just a humble guy who enjoys a friendly conversation about this kind of stuff.

And I didn't want the o.p. to feel he got taken by JD for paying a premium price for a machine with postion control. :D

I will agree with you, though, that Kubota really needs to step up its game and offer position control 3PH on their BX machines. They could do it just like JD does, and make it a premium feature on the top BX model (BX2670), or on both the upper models (BX2370 and 2670) and leave it off the "value" model BX1870.

More and more consumers are expecting to have this option available, and that's one of the features I really like about your 1025r.:thThumbsU
 
#16 ·
Draft control. Draft control, while not essential, makes life a little easier when plowing, sub-soiling, or using other ground engaging implements. For illustration purposes, let's assume we want to go plow up the back forty. We've mounted our plow to the three point hitch and adjusted things so that the plow will run straight and track properly behind the tractor. A note about plowing- if you have adjusted the plow properly, you should not have to use the stabilizer system to keep it running true behind the tractor. As you let the lift arms down, and begin to move forward though the field, the plow will start to enter the ground. As the plow continues down, traction and horsepower requirements increase. The natural tendency is for the plow to continue down until the tractor either loses traction, runs out of power, or the lift arms reach their lower limit. It is very unlikely that the latter will happen. We want to be able to plow at a reasonable depth without straining the engine or having excessive tire slippage. We also do not want to have to continually fiddle with the lift controls, raising and lowering the plow by small amounts, as ground conditions vary throughout the field. That's where draft control really helps. Draft control senses the amount of strain that the tractor is being subjected to from the plow. If the strain exceeds a predetermined level, the draft control will automatically raise the plow just enough to restore normal loading of the tractor. After you get past the hard spot in the field, the draft control automatically returns the plow to the pre-selected, ideal depth. There are two main types of draft sensing in wide use today. They are: lower link draft sensing, and top link draft sensing. Both achieve the same end result, and much discussion could be made over which is the best method. Generally you will find lower link sensing on larger, higher horsepower tractors. In the case of lower link sensing, the front of the lift arms are attached to a common bar that flexes with variable loading to impart movement to linkage that is ultimately connected to the control valve. There are also tractors on the market that incorporate an electronic lift control system. With these, the lower draft bar contains a strain sensor which sends a signal to an onboard computer. Movement of these electronic bars is almost undetectable to the eye. For tractors that utilize top link draft sensing, there are several methods in use to transmit draft load information to the control valve. For a large portion of North American style tractors, there is a rather large (usually internal) coil spring, which is compressed (by the top link) as draft load increases, and relaxed as the load diminishes. This compression/relaxation causes movement in the draft control linkage, thus changing the position on the control valve, raising and lowering the lift arms as needed. Other tractors (namely European style) have a massive leaf type spring between the top link and the lift cover. Still others use a torsion bar that is actually twisted as the top link moves toward and away from the tractor. Now, with all of this draft action going on, we've got to slow the lift system down some, or we'll end up with a rapid, out of control oscillation of the lift arms going up and down. This is accomplished with something called….

Response control. Response control (in most systems we know of) simply serves to control the rate at which hydraulic oil is allowed to escape from the lift cylinder. By slowing this rate, we minimize undesirable oscillations that would otherwise occur. Response control has no effect on rate of lift, and that is good, because we want the plow to raise quickly when we hit a hard spot. However, if we let the plow go back into the ground at an uncontrolled speed, we will end up pulling a plow that jumps into and out of the ground. We have to give the system a little time to settle down somewhere in the raise/lower cycle, and that is the function of the response control.

To get the maximum benefit from draft control, you must use it the way the manufacturer intended for it to be used. Do you need draft control? On the smaller tractors, probably not, as these tractors are rarely used to do much plowing. On larger tractors, it is pretty much standard equipment anyway, so the choice is made for you.