Homemade Fel
zapcan59
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Post up a Youtube video of that puppy running, eh?
I imagine a bit of a kerfuffle if you go adding the power to those spindly loader arms, eh?
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I imagine a bit of a kerfuffle if you go adding the power to those spindly loader arms, eh?
Go to 3575 Forest Glade Dr, Windsor, and buy a new 3000 psi glycerine filled gauge.
While you're there check out the prices for larger diameter cylinders or a smaller displacement pump. I can't see everything in that pic, but I'm guessing that you should also buy a relief valve and a power beyond kit for the loader valve.
The available pump flow is too high for the small diameter 3PH lift cylinder. A larger diameter cylinder will slow it down. Depending on the lifting speed of the loader, this may be preferable to a smaller displacement pump which will also slow the loader lift speed.
The loader arms are pretty light. A geometry improvement that will result in a bit more lift may be much more preferable to larger diameter cylinders that may bend the arms out of shape.
This stuff isn't rocket science, but you do need to have paid attention to your high school physics teacher instead of playing poker at the back of the classroom, as some of my classmates did 50 years ago. :sidelaugh
At the top of the index page for the Hydraulics forum is a sticky with links to several hydraulics tutorials, including one from Princess Auto Limited. The address at the top is their store in Windsor. If you've never been to a PAL store, take $25 cash to pay for the gauge and leave your credit cards at home!
While you're there check out the prices for larger diameter cylinders or a smaller displacement pump. I can't see everything in that pic, but I'm guessing that you should also buy a relief valve and a power beyond kit for the loader valve.
The available pump flow is too high for the small diameter 3PH lift cylinder. A larger diameter cylinder will slow it down. Depending on the lifting speed of the loader, this may be preferable to a smaller displacement pump which will also slow the loader lift speed.
The loader arms are pretty light. A geometry improvement that will result in a bit more lift may be much more preferable to larger diameter cylinders that may bend the arms out of shape.
This stuff isn't rocket science, but you do need to have paid attention to your high school physics teacher instead of playing poker at the back of the classroom, as some of my classmates did 50 years ago. :sidelaugh
At the top of the index page for the Hydraulics forum is a sticky with links to several hydraulics tutorials, including one from Princess Auto Limited. The address at the top is their store in Windsor. If you've never been to a PAL store, take $25 cash to pay for the gauge and leave your credit cards at home!
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PAL has a 3500 guage on sale for $11.23, looks to be a brass fitting is this ok? Is it as simple as R&R, no worrying about pressure? I was thinking of having the arms reinforced a little, maybe a cross piece a little under the weld. Would this work to strengthen? I should have mentioned if I baby the 3PH it is not erratic. I will take & post a few more pics. Thanks
Yup. Simple R&R. Most gauges have brass fittings, and the 3500 psi gauge will be fine until the system is set up for a known maximum pressure. If the 3500 psi gauge is on sale, check for a 2000 lb gauge on sale as well. It will be more appropriate for the on board gauge once this is sorted out.
Hydraulics is a numbers game. If you know the base numbers, all else can be calculated easily. If the base numbers are not known, they can be derived by reverse engineering calculations from observed operations.
First get the hydraulics working with known base numbers, then deal with the loader limitations. There MUST be a relief valve somewhere in the system that dumps excess pressure back to tank. It could be a separate component between the pump and the first valve set and will have 3 lines, one of which goes back to the pump inlet or the reservoir, or it could be incorporated in the body of the first control valve and will be indicated by an adjustable screw or a hex head fastener at the bottom left of the valve body when looking face on to the actuator levers and spools. In this case, it should also have 2 hoses coming from the right side of the valve body, one to the 3PH valve set, and the other back to tank.
From your initial description of the pressures, the relief valve is in the loader valve set and there is no power beyond kit installed to dump excess pressure directly back to tank. There will be only one hose from the return side of the loader valve set and it goes directly to the supply port of the 3PH valve set. That means that there is no relief for the 3PH and the pump is at risk to overpressure, which explains the 3000 psi reading on the 3PH and the 1000 psi reading on the loader circuit.
While you are at PAL, pick up an adjustable relief valve with a minimum 1000 psi setting, or as close to that as is available, and install it right at the pump outlet. That will sort out the fluctuating pressures.
Sorting out the loader geometry for improved lifting capacity requires knowing the bore and stroke of the cylinders and the size of the square tubing of the lift arms, as well as pin-to-pin dimensions of the arms, posts, and retracted cylinders, and making modifications to those dimensions as required. It will require a disc grinder, an electric 1/2" drill, and a welding machine as a minimum.
Oh yeah, a side view pic of the loader, preferably from the center between the ends of the arms and at about 2' above ground would be helpful.
Hydraulics is a numbers game. If you know the base numbers, all else can be calculated easily. If the base numbers are not known, they can be derived by reverse engineering calculations from observed operations.
First get the hydraulics working with known base numbers, then deal with the loader limitations. There MUST be a relief valve somewhere in the system that dumps excess pressure back to tank. It could be a separate component between the pump and the first valve set and will have 3 lines, one of which goes back to the pump inlet or the reservoir, or it could be incorporated in the body of the first control valve and will be indicated by an adjustable screw or a hex head fastener at the bottom left of the valve body when looking face on to the actuator levers and spools. In this case, it should also have 2 hoses coming from the right side of the valve body, one to the 3PH valve set, and the other back to tank.
From your initial description of the pressures, the relief valve is in the loader valve set and there is no power beyond kit installed to dump excess pressure directly back to tank. There will be only one hose from the return side of the loader valve set and it goes directly to the supply port of the 3PH valve set. That means that there is no relief for the 3PH and the pump is at risk to overpressure, which explains the 3000 psi reading on the 3PH and the 1000 psi reading on the loader circuit.
While you are at PAL, pick up an adjustable relief valve with a minimum 1000 psi setting, or as close to that as is available, and install it right at the pump outlet. That will sort out the fluctuating pressures.
Sorting out the loader geometry for improved lifting capacity requires knowing the bore and stroke of the cylinders and the size of the square tubing of the lift arms, as well as pin-to-pin dimensions of the arms, posts, and retracted cylinders, and making modifications to those dimensions as required. It will require a disc grinder, an electric 1/2" drill, and a welding machine as a minimum.
Oh yeah, a side view pic of the loader, preferably from the center between the ends of the arms and at about 2' above ground would be helpful.
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I also do not see a filter on the return line to the tank.. there should also b a strainer on the pump feed from the tank.. I also do not see any brace from the post tops to the tractor frame..
TUDOR was a great help for me when I added the FEL on my Perky project.. seen in this tread..
http://www.mytractorforum.com/184-massey-ferguson/803170-its-diesel-transplant-time-me.html
TUDOR was a great help for me when I added the FEL on my Perky project.. seen in this tread..
http://www.mytractorforum.com/184-massey-ferguson/803170-its-diesel-transplant-time-me.html
Here's the info on your pump.
The last pic shows that the pump is being overdriven by a considerable margin at WOT. Change the pulley on the pump to one the same size as the one on the engine and the 3PH will be much more manageable. The loader will also be slower.
Between the plumbing and the shadows, I can't tell whether or not there is a relief valve in the loader valve set.
The last pic shows that the pump is being overdriven by a considerable margin at WOT. Change the pulley on the pump to one the same size as the one on the engine and the 3PH will be much more manageable. The loader will also be slower.
Between the plumbing and the shadows, I can't tell whether or not there is a relief valve in the loader valve set.
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Pic 1, is this a relief valve?
Pic 2, I was thinking of reinforcing with angle iron between A & B. Unfortunately the arms are only 1 x 2 inches, the A arm is 29 inches long & the B arm is 24 inches. The cylinder arm is also 1 inch & extends 10.25 inches. Is a 400-450 lb lifting capacity unreasonable?
Pic 3, the blue hose in pic 2 goes to this cap.
Pic 4, would it be the same results (might be easier for clearance) if I move the pump out about an inch & use the smaller pulley on the motor? The slower loader won't matter as it does drop kinda fast.
I found a place a close to me, Checker Industrial which specializes in hydraulics, would it be worth the extra money, or is a gauge a guage?
Pic 2, I was thinking of reinforcing with angle iron between A & B. Unfortunately the arms are only 1 x 2 inches, the A arm is 29 inches long & the B arm is 24 inches. The cylinder arm is also 1 inch & extends 10.25 inches. Is a 400-450 lb lifting capacity unreasonable?
Pic 3, the blue hose in pic 2 goes to this cap.
Pic 4, would it be the same results (might be easier for clearance) if I move the pump out about an inch & use the smaller pulley on the motor? The slower loader won't matter as it does drop kinda fast.
I found a place a close to me, Checker Industrial which specializes in hydraulics, would it be worth the extra money, or is a gauge a guage?
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pic #1.. that looks like the cover cap is missin off the back side of the one spool valve.. the relief valve is usually on the same side as the handles..
pic 2.. the guy used a very weak tube.. it should b at least 2 x 2 & have a wall thickness of 3/16 - 1/4 inch..
pic ##3.. that is the tank fill with a vented cap.. it will take forever to add hyd fluid to the system..
pic ##4.. this might work.. but the pump needs to have a very solid mount.. right now it is just 'cobbled' on the system..
ur gauge needs to take 5000## pressure.. glycerine filled too.. made strictly for hyd systems.. DO NOT use one for air pressure..
after lookin this loader over.. I wouldn't trust it to lift a toothpick.. the arms r way too weak no matter how u brace them.. there is no brace from the top of the post to the mower frame at the front.. this will allow the under structure & posts to bend somewhere.. now then too.. the lift cyl's r not mounted correctly.. they should b on the front of the posts.. not on the inside of them.. they r now pushin at an angle outward to the arm.. it appears he used 1/2 inch or smaller bolts to connect the cyls.. these will b angle stressed with any load in the bucket..
Pic #1 - That does appear to be the relief valve. As Whirly suggested, it is usually on the same end as the levers, but some are on the back end as that is, and on a rare occasion, can also be found on top of the valve body.
Pic #2 - Hoo boy! Leave well enough alone for now. Accept the fact that 225-250 lb is the lifting capability. More on this later.
Pic #3 - I agree with Whirly.
Pic #4 - Yes, it will work, BUT, turning the tractor to the right is likely to rub the tire on the pump. Clearances need to be determined at extreme right turn angle with the front axle fully tilted both left and right. Again, as Whirly suggests, a stronger pump mount would be a wise investment. Unlike Whirly's pump which has to handle a maximum of about 4 hp, and the one on my GT that has to handle about 6 hp, you're pump will only need to handle about 2 hp. None of the pumps need to handle their respective maximum power for more than a very few seconds at a time.
While a 5000 psi gauge is handy to have for checking pressures in an unknown hydraulic system, you won't find that pressure on any GT. The pump will break before the pressure gets that high. The 3500 psi gauge at PAL is more than adequate for this purpose, and once the system is dialed in, a gauge slightly less than double the relief pressure is ideal.
Back to the arms . . . and lift cylinders. The lift cylinders are 1" diameter X 10" stroke? At 1000 psi, that's a lifting force of 785 lb each. They are working on the wrong end of about a 6.5:1 lever ratio for an effective lifting force of about 120 lb each at the center of the bucket, or 240 lb payload. The geometry of the set up will further reduce that payload, as will the weight of the arms and bucket to some extent.
As Whirly stated, the arms should be 2x2 structural tubing, not for lifting strength, but for lateral strength. A side load on the bucket either from hitting something while turning, or turning the tractor with the bucket engaged with the ground, will put a substantial side load on the arms that 1" of metal is not going tolerate for too many repetitions. With the 4' lever from the post to the bucket, you would be able to bend the arms by pushing the bucket sideways with your hands if it wasn't for the crossmember supporting the bucket curl cylinder.
Reinforcing the arms with angle between A and B is not going to help at all for lateral loads, and is unnecessary for vertical loads. There are lots of manufactured loaders with 2x2 arms that have lift capacities of 400-500 lb with longer arms.
This brings us to the wall thickness of tubing where Whirly and I are in some disagreement. A wall thickness of 1/8" is common for all GT loaders. With the loads usually involved, that is adequate due to the length of the arms and the bending that will result. Heavier wall tubing will support more load before taking a permanent bend, but it will still bend. Arms made with 2x4x1/8" tube will support more weight than arms made with 2x2x1/4" tube, and will be 25% lighter. That lighter weight translates into a few more pounds of payload when needed, and less load in the front axle when it is not.
As Whirly also suggests, diagonal bracing from near the top of the posts down to the front of the tractor frame should be in place. While the torque load at the bottom of the posts with a capacity payload is relatively light in this case (about 500 ft-lb per post), improving the payload capability will increase that torque load to the point of failure for the tractor frame or the cross member supporting the posts. Without the diagonal bracing on my GT's loader, the torque load is about 650 ft-lb per post with no payload. Without the proper support structure, a capacity payload would be a real bad idea. And guess what . . . there are many Sears tractors similar to yours out there with the same basic loader as on my GT! They just don't have the same support structure.
Whirly also has a good point about the upset loads on the cylinder pins because they have only one end supported, especially if payload capacity is increased.
As with everything, gauges come in different qualities, usually with a price tag that reflects that fact. PAL's gauges are adequate for our purposes, and you aren't likely to find a better price than $11.23 anywhere. I paid $15.99 for a 2000 psi gauge on sale at PAL last December.
Pic #2 - Hoo boy! Leave well enough alone for now. Accept the fact that 225-250 lb is the lifting capability. More on this later.
Pic #3 - I agree with Whirly.
Pic #4 - Yes, it will work, BUT, turning the tractor to the right is likely to rub the tire on the pump. Clearances need to be determined at extreme right turn angle with the front axle fully tilted both left and right. Again, as Whirly suggests, a stronger pump mount would be a wise investment. Unlike Whirly's pump which has to handle a maximum of about 4 hp, and the one on my GT that has to handle about 6 hp, you're pump will only need to handle about 2 hp. None of the pumps need to handle their respective maximum power for more than a very few seconds at a time.
While a 5000 psi gauge is handy to have for checking pressures in an unknown hydraulic system, you won't find that pressure on any GT. The pump will break before the pressure gets that high. The 3500 psi gauge at PAL is more than adequate for this purpose, and once the system is dialed in, a gauge slightly less than double the relief pressure is ideal.
Back to the arms . . . and lift cylinders. The lift cylinders are 1" diameter X 10" stroke? At 1000 psi, that's a lifting force of 785 lb each. They are working on the wrong end of about a 6.5:1 lever ratio for an effective lifting force of about 120 lb each at the center of the bucket, or 240 lb payload. The geometry of the set up will further reduce that payload, as will the weight of the arms and bucket to some extent.
As Whirly stated, the arms should be 2x2 structural tubing, not for lifting strength, but for lateral strength. A side load on the bucket either from hitting something while turning, or turning the tractor with the bucket engaged with the ground, will put a substantial side load on the arms that 1" of metal is not going tolerate for too many repetitions. With the 4' lever from the post to the bucket, you would be able to bend the arms by pushing the bucket sideways with your hands if it wasn't for the crossmember supporting the bucket curl cylinder.
Reinforcing the arms with angle between A and B is not going to help at all for lateral loads, and is unnecessary for vertical loads. There are lots of manufactured loaders with 2x2 arms that have lift capacities of 400-500 lb with longer arms.
This brings us to the wall thickness of tubing where Whirly and I are in some disagreement. A wall thickness of 1/8" is common for all GT loaders. With the loads usually involved, that is adequate due to the length of the arms and the bending that will result. Heavier wall tubing will support more load before taking a permanent bend, but it will still bend. Arms made with 2x4x1/8" tube will support more weight than arms made with 2x2x1/4" tube, and will be 25% lighter. That lighter weight translates into a few more pounds of payload when needed, and less load in the front axle when it is not.
As Whirly also suggests, diagonal bracing from near the top of the posts down to the front of the tractor frame should be in place. While the torque load at the bottom of the posts with a capacity payload is relatively light in this case (about 500 ft-lb per post), improving the payload capability will increase that torque load to the point of failure for the tractor frame or the cross member supporting the posts. Without the diagonal bracing on my GT's loader, the torque load is about 650 ft-lb per post with no payload. Without the proper support structure, a capacity payload would be a real bad idea. And guess what . . . there are many Sears tractors similar to yours out there with the same basic loader as on my GT! They just don't have the same support structure.
Whirly also has a good point about the upset loads on the cylinder pins because they have only one end supported, especially if payload capacity is increased.
As with everything, gauges come in different qualities, usually with a price tag that reflects that fact. PAL's gauges are adequate for our purposes, and you aren't likely to find a better price than $11.23 anywhere. I paid $15.99 for a 2000 psi gauge on sale at PAL last December.
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Kinda wish I read these last 2 posts at the end of the day lol , but I do appreciate the brutal honesty! This was not my first choice, there was a beautiful little Case loader that was gone when I returned with the $1000 Can. he was asking, it still haunts me, I suspect someone offered him more! I rarely see small ones for sale around here & when they come up they are over $3000, this had a nice tiller & plow. The cons are everything I'm finding out, the pro's, it did save me $300 already, they want $70 an hr with a 4 hr min + $10 each way. Another plus is there are people constantly stopping to see if it for sale, so if something else comes along it shouldn't be hard to sell. For now I think I will use it & slowly make the recommended changes as it is handy. Thanks for everyones input!
We're dealing with a loader. If the honesty is not brutal, the results of using an inferior unit will be. I have used my loader to lift and transport payloads in excess of 1000 lb. Nothing that I designed and built for installing it has had any failures in 22 years and over 2000 hours of service. I paid close attention to the failures on my first loader on a GT slightly smaller than yours and learned my lessons well . . . eventually. :hide:
Any loader on a GT, no matter how small the payload capability, is an improvement over using that Mexican (Manuel Labor) and his Euclid (shovel and a wheel barrow). :fing32:
Do you have your passport and a trailer? Expand your horizons. Search Craigs List in a 400 mile radius from your location for a GT/FEL. It will cost you the HST to bring it across the border.
Any loader on a GT, no matter how small the payload capability, is an improvement over using that Mexican (Manuel Labor) and his Euclid (shovel and a wheel barrow). :fing32:
Do you have your passport and a trailer? Expand your horizons. Search Craigs List in a 400 mile radius from your location for a GT/FEL. It will cost you the HST to bring it across the border.
That does change things. The bore is probably 1.5". That makes the cylinder about 2" in outside diameter, if that helps you.
Maximum force for a 1.5" cylinder at 1000 psi = 1767 lb. A "slight" increase over a 1" cylinder. :sidelaugh
If you're coming to see me, bring your axe. My jam nights are Thursday and Friday, and I have a buddy running one on Wednesday night and another friend with one on Saturday afternoon.
Maximum force for a 1.5" cylinder at 1000 psi = 1767 lb. A "slight" increase over a 1" cylinder. :sidelaugh
If you're coming to see me, bring your axe. My jam nights are Thursday and Friday, and I have a buddy running one on Wednesday night and another friend with one on Saturday afternoon.
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176 Posts
Put a 2000 psi gauge on & here are the readings--- @ low throttle reads 500 psi, @ full throttle reads 700 psi. On full throttle when I'm lifting the bucket it reads 300 psi & when I'm lifting the rear 3ph it reads 500 psi, ( if I pull the 3ph lever fast, it jumps off the charts). There has been some disagreement on pic 1 being a relief valve or missing cap, but it does have an allen head at the end of the threads. If it is a relief valve do you simply adjust, much like a compressor where it may build up to 120 psi, but you adjust to 90 psi to run say an air nailer? Tudor are they open mike jams or backyard jams? I said it jokingly, but if you work on machines, I'm actually thinking about it. I have some 1.5 x 3 x 1/8 inch steel, is this still to small for loader arms? Finally, in pic 2, I got this stuff in a box lot, is it useable, or scrap? Thanks!
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Relief valves set maximum pressure in a hydraulic system. The working pressure is variable for whatever it takes to do the job. A pneumatic system uses maximum pressure to do the job which entails the risk of overdriving something like a nailer. Air is compressible, fluid is not.
Loosen and hold the nut with a wrench and screw in poppet spring with an allen wrench, then hold the allen wrench while tightening the lock nut when you have the desired pressure setting.
Fluid has mass, and therefore inertia. Change the direction of flow quickly and the pressure will spike while the fluid adjusts to its new course.
For lateral strength of the arms, you really do want 2" wide tubing.
In the pic, it looks like a 2x4 tie rod cylinder that is good for an implement lift or any of a number of applications that can use a 4" stroke, a small pump with a splined shaft that may take some looking to find a coupling to fit, and the third item, I'm not sure. Need more pics and what it says on the tag. Possibly a spool valve. Whether or not any of it is useable will take some investigation.
The jams are campfire style, as opposed to open mike or showcase style. The group sits in a circle, one song each clockwise around the circle. Depending on how many come out, it may be 30 minutes between songs for an individual, or well over an hour. Typically, 14-18 in the group on average. All are welcome, beginners to pros. Not much working on machines this year (I do need my MF1655 back in service), more like working with them. I have a couple of major upgrades and repairs to do to my house and garage.
Loosen and hold the nut with a wrench and screw in poppet spring with an allen wrench, then hold the allen wrench while tightening the lock nut when you have the desired pressure setting.
Fluid has mass, and therefore inertia. Change the direction of flow quickly and the pressure will spike while the fluid adjusts to its new course.
For lateral strength of the arms, you really do want 2" wide tubing.
In the pic, it looks like a 2x4 tie rod cylinder that is good for an implement lift or any of a number of applications that can use a 4" stroke, a small pump with a splined shaft that may take some looking to find a coupling to fit, and the third item, I'm not sure. Need more pics and what it says on the tag. Possibly a spool valve. Whether or not any of it is useable will take some investigation.
The jams are campfire style, as opposed to open mike or showcase style. The group sits in a circle, one song each clockwise around the circle. Depending on how many come out, it may be 30 minutes between songs for an individual, or well over an hour. Typically, 14-18 in the group on average. All are welcome, beginners to pros. Not much working on machines this year (I do need my MF1655 back in service), more like working with them. I have a couple of major upgrades and repairs to do to my house and garage.
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