My new shed???...YEAH RIGHT!!! (yes, it's a entertaining rant...lol)

Frook · Jun 26, 2011

I am ALMOST officially done with the guy who was supposed to build my shed. Keep in mind he was SUPPOSED TO start tomorrow!!! From the very beginning, I was a bit wary with this guy. not enough to say "no", but enough to always be keeping a close eye on him. Just this past Friday, my fears and reservations were confirmed.

From the very beginning this guy has been like, "yeah i can do it, no you don't need this, yeah i can do that". Basically (what I now view it as) kind of like a used car dealer type person. From the very first day, this guy has said I DON'T need any special permit or whatever for the shed. Well, guess what?!?!?

I ended up talking to the city inspector on Friday. He's the same guy who checked out my basement when building it. Turns out I needed to (did-so right after talking to him) file for a permit BEFORE even breaking ground on the new shed. Not only that (and despite being told otherwise) but a safety ground anchor tie-down system must be installed and inspected. So, needless to say, I was a bit upset.

I'm pretty sure that with all his shenanigans, that he is actually not licensed/insured/ whatever. However great of a builder he is, he's no different than me really. I called him on Friday to inform him of the license issue and he couldn't care less it seemed. He's basically like, "well wow, yeah...ok". Said he would call other clients and see about moving my date back some. Asked him to do it Friday. He said he probably wouldn't get to it Saturday. It's Sunday and NO word, not even to say he's tried to make things right.

I am NOT saying this guy does bad work. He could very well be an amazing builder. But how much am I supposed to take? This shed was supposed to be done by Tuesday. NO, it probably won't get started for at least two weeks (IF he finds somebody) due to how long permit application takes. My wife says give him a week to make things right then just tell him, "no thanks, we're through". seriously, if I don't get a call, a apology, or something due to him misleading me and then simply blowing off my concerns, I am going to enjoy telling him to buzz off...

D-Dogg · Jun 26, 2011

While I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience, I am glad to see another thread advocating doing your building the legal way.

Let's hope some others learn from your experience.

First of all, most counties require a permit for anything above 100-150 square feet. Some may require a permit for anything at all, and then if you have an HOA there may be additional permits.

Next, run, don't walk from any contractor who says "don't worry about it".

Similarly, run don't walk from any contractor who tells you that you are responsible for getting permits. You are stuck being the referee between him and the building office. Any true professional knows how easy it is to file permits and schedule inspections.

Finally, the building office is not your enemy. They ensure code compliance for safety. Mine has saved me from several jacklegs.

Around me, there is no shortage of what I call "rednecks with pickup trucks" who will:
bid any job whether they can handle it or not;
expect advances on labor;
whine all the way through it about how they can't do this or that and it's your fault;
tell you permits are not required, or that you have to get one if you want it;
argue with you about what the building inspector says, and expect you to pay more when they have to redo their sub-standard work;

BTW, Angieslist, ServiceMagic, and those other sites are a waste of your time, as is the BBB.

You can tell a professional because he or she will show up with a copy of their license, and insurance, and will talk codes and permits right up front.

Also in the contract (yes, real professionals will insist on a contract), ensure there is verbage that the prime is responsible for paying all subs.

marlboro180 · Jun 26, 2011

Frook,

D-Dogg has some sound thoughts ^^^^^. Heed his advise, let the man do the work he does for someone else....Cut your losses now, and bring in someone else.

There will be nothing but frustration on both your sides, and this typically turns out poorly in the end.

I say this from years in the trades, and as a general, a sub,contractor, an employee , and also on the other side of the fence as a consumer/ customer/ client.

License? some municipalities it is required, but not all....

Bonded- again, YMMV...

Insurance? make sure they have it. I just pulled off a job this week due to an insurance issue, needed more per the clients request after starting the job ( their change, not mine). Got more coverage on Friday, bring new cert w/ me on Mon. per clients request. No biggie.... no bad blood whatsoever... Just part of the job.:fing32:

Hope you find someone soon.

Tractor-Holic · Jun 26, 2011

This reminds me of when a "friend" who was a brick mason promised to build me a chimmney for the wood stove in my garage back when I erected the quonset in 1992...he tells me to go buy the cement chimmney blocks,the tile liners,and mortar,and he'd be "there to do it as soon as he was done with the job he was doing now"...

2 weeks later I called him,asked if he was planning to do it BEFORE WINTER!--it was September when I got all the stuff to build it,and October by the time I called him... said "Oh,I cant fo it this week--MAYBe next week I can "start" the job"....
(I had already given him 50 bucks "deposit" to cover his outlay for gas to get here and to buy sand ,etc...)

Another week passes,and after 2 more phone calls,
,he fimally shows up the next day,hung over and in a foul mood..started digging the hole for the footing,had ME mix the cement by hand,and he poured the footing,and laid about 5 feet of blocks and tiles,then says "I have to let that "set up" for a day or two before I can finish it,or else it might "tilt" on us!...so I waited 2 more weeks,then he finally returns..now we have had a frost,and I feared the cement wont cure right!--but he says no,I do work in cold weather,its "no big deal"...

He finished the chimmney after another 3-4 days passed,with ME doing most all of the mortar mixing,and supplying lunches ,snacks and beer the whole time...I spent about 250 bucks on materials and paid him 200 to build it,all told I must have had 500 bucks into it before it was done"..

.a few days later,I hooked up the stove pipe and lit the stove,and it worked good for awhile--then smoke started backdrafting back into the building,like it had insufficent draft....a look in a book at the library tells me the chimmney is not tall enough,its not above the roof peak by at least 2 feet--so I call him again and tel him whats going on,and he says "well,I figured it was not tall enough--but YOU wanted it built as cheap as possibe--so unless you buy more block and tiles and pay me another 100 bucks,you can LIVE with it!"....I didn't have much choice,so I bought enough blocks and tiles to raise it up 4 more feet....and paid him to do it,by the time he showed up to do it,it was the first week in December!...

The chimmney has not performed well from day one,as far as I am concerned I wasted 600+ bucks on it...should have researched more before building it--for one,I should have put it on the other side of the building AWAY from the trees along side of it,which are now blocking the draft worse than ever..the other side has an open feild on it,and would likel;y have much better draft...but had I asked other owners of steel quonsets,I would have known I did not NEED a chimmney at all,I could have simply used stove pipe straight up to the paek inside,then put a "boot" and use afew feet of stainless pipe as the "chimmney"...that would have cost maybe 150 bucks,and I would get a lot more HEAT off the stove pipe inside the building,instead of getting none from an exterior masonary chimmney that kills the draft when its cold and icy,and takes forever to heat up enough to get sufficient draft!...

Live and learn ,I guess....you can bet I wont be so hasty when I need to buid some other thing,I'll read up on it FIRST and then I'd be likely to built it MYSELF....I am no carpenter,but I managed to build two endwalls,doors,and assemble the overhead door by myself....I could have easily spent more than the garage cost on labor,if I had someone else do it,and I'm pretty sure they would have done a half arsed job and "blew it out quick" even if they were getting good money for it....

Oh yeah--I learned later on,my "friend" ended up
becoming a heroin addict,I broke ALL ties with that jerk after I found that out...I could fill another page of horrorstories about him,he was calling me at all hours wanting rides,me to work for him for peanuts,then when I refused he started getting hostile and made threats...!...but thats another story!..

..

I'd be very careful hiring any "contractors" especially in todays economy--many "contractors" are NOT "up" on the codes,and more have no liability insurance or workmans comp either--my "friend" had a hired helper fall off a scaffold and he sued the homeowner,and bragged how they spilt the settlement and made twice what the job paid...

...I now tend to not have anything I cant build myself,for these reasons!..

Canawler · Jun 26, 2011

While you obviously need to do any building like this the legal way, I can't image how any contractor can be familiar with each municipality's regulations. In PA there are state accepted building codes available but many if not most individual townships and boroughs haven't adopted them yet. In my township alone, there are five different types of zoning and each has different requirements as far as permitting goes. Most homeowner's don't even know what their property is zoned. I almost can't blame a contractor for requiring the homeowner to get the permits.

John@Reliable · Jun 26, 2011

Why are you waiting to find someone else? If this is how it started, do you really think it's going to get better?

D-Dogg · Jun 26, 2011

Canawler said:
While you obviously need to do any building like this the legal way, I can't image how any contractor can be familiar with each municipality's regulations. In PA there are state accepted building codes available but many if not most individual townships and boroughs haven't adopted them yet. In my township alone, there are five different types of zoning and each has different requirements as far as permitting goes. Most homeowner's don't even know what their property is zoned. I almost can't blame a contractor for requiring the homeowner to get the permits.

PA sounds a little complicated, Jim.

Down here, even in my backwoods county, the building office can answer all your questions for your specific address. Even tell you if you have an HOA (believe it or not, you can have one and not know about it). That's one of their functions. A contractor should get a pretty good briefing from the building office when he or she files the permit.

Ours also has DIY packets for the top dozen or so homeowner projects. Follow them to the letter (and they are very specific) and you will have no issues with the inspector. They include, finishing a basement, finishing a garage, building a deck, installing a hot-tub, building a shed, remodeling a kitchen, and a few others.

I didn't really want to say this aloud, but one of the reasons contractors around my area don't like to do the paperwork is due to the high incidence of illiteracy (and I am not talking about south of the border workers).

Going back to what marlboro said about licenses - it is true that in many areas you don't need one. I don't need that string of letters in my professional signature block either, but I won't get hired without them.

deereboy55 · Jun 26, 2011

John@Reliable said:
Why are you waiting to find someone else? If this is how it started, do you really think it's going to get better?

Put your hand over your wallet ,and start running away as fast as you can . I have been on construction for 36 years and guys like this are the reason a lot of people don't trust building contractors.

Artpb · Jun 26, 2011

I would give a week to get everything back on track once the City Inspector signs off, start by a verball discussions then follow up on the 5th day after approval with a Certified Return Receipt letter to him re-stating your discussion. Start taking pictures of everthing, material on site, overall site conditions, his vehicle, supplier trucks and subs on site, even him if possible.

Who's ahead of whom here monetarily, is there a contract? Document everything!

If your ahead of him money wise I would just politely put him on notice as to your concerns. If he's ahead of you money wise, I'd ride it out a little while longer and see his couse of action.

Watch him and don't pay him a dime more until he's done and the local Officials are happy. At the end of job I've gone as far as calling the suppliers and subs and asking them if they will sign a Lien Waiver before you pay the contractor, their response will tell you a lot.

Frook · Jun 26, 2011

I just emailed the "contractor". I have cancelled his appointment. Told him respectfully, "your services will no longer be needed". Fact is (as many have stated), this guy has continually showed unprofessional business ethics. I can't go into this contract simply "hoping" he gets better. Either I 1) find another contractor or 2) build it myself over a couple weeks. It may take longer, but in the end, I believe it's the smartest move I can make.

D-Dogg · Jun 26, 2011

Frook said:
I just emailed the "contractor". I have cancelled his appointment. Told him respectfully, "your services will no longer be needed". Fact is (as many have stated), this guy has continually showed unprofessional business ethics. I can't go into this contract simply "hoping" he gets better. Either I 1) find another contractor or 2) build it myself over a couple weeks. It may take longer, but in the end, I believe it's the smartest move I can make.

That's the wisest thing to do Frook.

After 3 years of figuring out what I want to do for a new shed, I am down to one of two companies. Both have storefronts, and regular employees on the payroll. Both do all the permits and inspections.

One build custom pole barns, and offers turnkey service. If I can find $25K under a rock, I can get a 30x40 with an 8 foot overhang on the front, 3 garage doors, a 4 inch concrete floor, built by EMPLOYEES of this company.

The other specializes in traditional stick built sheds and garages, and will build me a 16'x24' vinyl shed, with one foot overhang, one garage door, one walk-in, 4 windows, 4 inch monolithic slab for $10K. Again, built by employees.

When you consider the Amish dump and run sheds in 12'x24' run $8K plus, I think either of these companies are bargains.

Just goes to show you need to shop around.

Frook · Jun 26, 2011

I had to pester him to get a contract. I sent over a preliminary (unsigned) template stating expenses and so forth. He never sent it back to me. We had no signed contract and therefore, I am under no obligation to go with him.

I sent over the email not 15min ago. I have already gotten 2 calls from him. It's funny how for weeks/months, this guy is hard to get a call from. He didn't even send the contract back after 1.5wks. But the moment I tell him, "it's over", I've already gotten 2 calls...

weekend_warrior · Jun 26, 2011

D-Dogg said:
BTW, Angieslist, ServiceMagic, and those other sites are a waste of your time, as is the BBB.

I use AngiesList extensively and think it's a great resource. Why do you think it's a waste of time? (Not trying to get into an argument about it, just curious why your opinion of them is so low)

D-Dogg · Jun 26, 2011

weekend_warrior said:
I use AngiesList extensively and think it's a great resource. Why do you think it's a waste of time? (Not trying to get into an argument about it, just curious why your opinion of them is so low)

I had terrible luck with ServiceMagic, so a friend who subscribes to Angieslist looked up some contractors for me. Surprise, surprise, the same guys ServiceMagic sent me, whom I would not let change a tire on my car, apparently walked on water according to Angieslist.

John@Reliable · Jun 26, 2011

Frook said:
I had to pester him to get a contract. I sent over a preliminary (unsigned) template stating expenses and so forth. He never sent it back to me. We had no signed contract and therefore, I am under no obligation to go with him.

I sent over the email not 15min ago. I have already gotten 2 calls from him. It's funny how for weeks/months, this guy is hard to get a call from. He didn't even send the contract back after 1.5wks. But the moment I tell him, "it's over", I've already gotten 2 calls...

Good move :fing32:

D-Dogg said:
I had terrible luck with ServiceMagic, so a friend who subscribes to Angieslist looked up some contractors for me. Surprise, surprise, the same guys ServiceMagic sent me, whom I would not let change a tire on my car, apparently walked on water according to Angieslist.

It's all a numbers game with the two above and BBB too, the more you pay them the better you look:thSick:.
I can't tell you how many times I have been a$k to join, thanks but no thanks :fing32:

marlboro180 · Jun 27, 2011

John@Reliable said:
Good move :fing32:

It's all a numbers game with the two above and BBB too, the more you pay them the better you look:thSick:.
I can't tell you how many times I have been a$k to join, thanks but no thanks :fing32:

Amen to that John!

weekend_warrior · Jun 27, 2011

I don't want to threadjack this thread any more about Angie's List. I've created a new thread about it and would really like to hear why some of you have such a bad opinion of them.

I've used them for years and recommended them to many others.

Please let me know your experience over here:

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?p=1770121#post1770121

Thanks!

huffy · Jun 27, 2011

Canawler said:
While you obviously need to do any building like this the legal way, I can't image how any contractor can be familiar with each municipality's regulations.

While I can understand your point that no contractor can be familiar with each municipality's regulations, IMO a competent contractor should be able to get familiar with them quickly. It's really not hard to find out what a home is zoned and what local ordinances, etc, apply. While PA may be different, here in MI all I would need is the address of the home and about a 1/2 hour or so on the computer, on the phone, or down at the government building to find out what regs apply.

After all, clients hire contractors for their knowledge and capabilities - and that's not limited just to whether they know how/can use a hammer.

Canawler · Jun 28, 2011

huffy said:
While I can understand your point that no contractor can be familiar with each municipality's regulations, IMO a competent contractor should be able to get familiar with them quickly. It's really not hard to find out what a home is zoned and what local ordinances, etc, apply. While PA may be different, here in MI all I would need is the address of the home and about a 1/2 hour or so on the computer, on the phone, or down at the government building to find out what regs apply.

After all, clients hire contractors for their knowledge and capabilities - and that's not limited just to whether they know how/can use a hammer.

I agree completely. I was more pointing out how ridiculous it is that you have so many different sets of rules to follow, all in the same municipality, county, and state.

marlboro180 · Jun 28, 2011

Canawler said:
I agree completely. I was more pointing out how ridiculous it is that you have so many different sets of rules to follow, all in the same municipality, county, and state.

And you are right sir, and even funnier is when they contradict one another LOL! Which one to follow???

Know what the acronym NEC stands for besides

"National Electrical Code"???

-----------------Nobody Entirely Complies------------------------------:sidelaugh

My new shed???...YEAH RIGHT!!! (yes, it's a entertaining rant...lol)

Frook

D-Dogg

marlboro180

Tractor-Holic

Canawler

John@Reliable

D-Dogg

deereboy55

Artpb

Frook

D-Dogg

Frook

weekend_warrior

D-Dogg

John@Reliable

marlboro180

weekend_warrior

huffy

Canawler

marlboro180

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