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#21 ·
Your tractor is a 1991.

At an average use of 50 hours per year, realistically your tractor should have around 850 to 900 hours on it. Therefore, either someone lied to the PO or you own a very low hour machine for its age.

And Frank's 195 is likely a 1968, not a '71. :biglaugh:
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Caseguytoo said:
Your tractor is a 1991.

At an average use of 50 hours per year, realistically your tractor should have around 850 to 900 hours on it. Therefore, either someone lied to the PO or you own a very low hour machine for its age.

And Frank's 195 is likely a 1968, not a '71. :biglaugh:
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see ...that does seem low .....i mow about 1 hour each week ....so i run it about 25-30 hours a year. I dont think the guy i bought it from lied to me but maybe the person he bought it from lied ....or maybe its true that it sat on a salesfloor priced too high for a long time. not sure.

Its good to know that its a 1991. Maybe the owners manual that i have (printed in 1992) was picked up after the fact. Just last night I notice that the owners manual I have lists the Kohler (not the Vanguard) in the specifications. Maybe its not the correct manual or maybe the engine was swapped??. I assume that the Vanguard was also standard equipment in 1991? who knows
 
#27 ·
Caseguytoo said:
What part of this did you miss????:biglaugh:

the metal tag lists just the following info:
Model: 3012
Product ID #: 14145928
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Come on for pete's sake! When you get to be Bart's age, you can't be awake and alert ALL the time! LOL
 
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Discussion starter · #29 ·
FOR SALE
1991 or 1992 Ingersoll with RM44 deck.... nice machine, 12.5 HP Vanguard engine needs repair or replacement. Everything else works well ...including hydraulics, etc. Deck (and machine) are in solid (very good) condition, new cylinder head and starter, recent Briggs rectifier, fuel filter, plugs, and other small parts.

Well ...it doesnt look good. Mechanic came by and called to tell me that the engine is definatly seized. He doesnt know exactly why ...says maybe Piston seized to cylinder wall or crank/rod seized ....he said its tough to tell without tearing into it....probably from heat, age or fatigue. He said it was not from lack of oil.

His honest opinion .... get another machine. He said that he can swap an engine or do whatever I want ...but a new similar engine is about $1200. Its tough to find a good used engine with a shaft that goes all the way through to power the PTO ...basically have to buy a new replacement or try to fix the old one. Then, he says, you never know ....something else could go to crap ....deck, rear end (its heavy duty), hydraulic problems etc. He said, the machine is old (though I realize its still a classic).

Im almost embarrassed to say this but he suggested I head down to ummmm....errr....a "big box store" and get a cub cadet or something modest with 16 or more HP based on my modest sized lot. Then, he says, everything is new....or pick up something used and cheap for sale by someone else.

Im sad ...and still dont know what to do. As stated before, I dont have the money to fix or repair what I have (or buy a new one), I dont want to see my baby go, I dont want to end up like Munderhill (with a new plastic hood) :duh: , I dont know :eek:mg:

I would love to hold onto my machine and see if I can fix it down the line but I simply dont have anywhere to store it...especially if i find something else. I will either sell it as is ..... or see if one of my other aquaintances ....who loves working on this stuff is willing to let me keep it at his farm until we can slowly repair it. If I sell as is for maybe $500-$600 or more (I hope) ....someone could end up with a very nice buy and hopefully get her going with a new or repaired powerplant. Even with a new Vanguard, they are still under $2000 for a 3000 series Ingy

Just throwing it out there .....anyone possibly interested this machine???
 
#30 ·
Instead of speculating on the cost of a replacement engine why not ask Brian Hildret how much he would want to replace it then you'll have a factual basis to make a decision. If Brian can get a short block the total price including installation may be less than you're thinking. You may also want to get a quote from a competent rebuilder for repairing your current engine. We know that it costs around $1700 to do a complete rebuild on an Onan twin but the Onan parts are far more expensive. I recall that there is a shop in Michigan or Ohio that will rebuild a Kohler single cylinder for just $500.

If your mechanic is telling you that your tractor is old and on the verge of becoming a money pit he is not well informed--particularly if he suggests getting a big box variety mower. The 16 hp from Big Box will not come close to performing like the Ingersoll with just 12 hp--it's all about torque not hp. Think about this, if a new Vanguard engine is $1200 by itself and the Big Box store is selling a new 16 hp tractor for, say, $1800 do you think you're going to get as good of an engine? Someone with knowledge of the engine industry explained on another forum that the "consumer" quality engines are only designed to last about 500 hours compared with a Vanguard that should last 3000 and when the consumer engine is shot it's not rebuildable.

I think you're being far too optimistic about what your tractor can be sold for as is--$200-300 is more realistic.

Contact Brian and let us know what he says then we can give you some further advice.
 
#31 ·
Bart said:
Instead of speculating on the cost of a replacement engine why not ask Brian Hildret how much he would want to replace it then you'll have a factual basis to make a decision. If Brian can get a short block the total price including installation may be less than you're thinking. You may also want to get a quote from a competent rebuilder for repairing your current engine. We know that it costs around $1700 to do a complete rebuild on an Onan twin but the Onan parts are far more expensive. I recall that there is a shop in Michigan or Ohio that will rebuild a Kohler single cylinder for just $500.

If your mechanic is telling you that your tractor is old and on the verge of becoming a money pit he is not well informed--particularly if he suggests getting a big box variety mower. The 16 hp from Big Box will not come close to performing like the Ingersoll with just 12 hp--it's all about torque not hp. Think about this, if a new Vanguard engine is $1200 by itself and the Big Box store is selling a new 16 hp tractor for, say, $1800 do you think you're going to get as good of an engine? Someone with knowledge of the engine industry explained on another forum that the "consumer" quality engines are only designed to last about 500 hours compared with a Vanguard that should last 3000 and when the consumer engine is shot it's not rebuildable.

I think you're being far too optimistic about what your tractor can be sold for as is--$200-300 is more realistic.

Contact Brian and let us know what he says then we can give you some further advice.
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It is situations like this that keep getting me into trouble! Trying to help you out is very tempting!

Talking to Brian is the right way to go! There is an awful lot of truth in all the Bart has said! I, also think your "Mechanic" friend is way off base. Obviously he does not know the Case/Ingersoll line!
 
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Discussion starter · #32 · (Edited)
Bart said:
Instead of speculating on the cost of a replacement engine why not ask Brian Hildret how much he would want to replace it then you'll have a factual basis to make a decision. If Brian can get a short block the total price including installation may be less than you're thinking. You may also want to get a quote from a competent rebuilder for repairing your current engine. We know that it costs around $1700 to do a complete rebuild on an Onan twin but the Onan parts are far more expensive. I recall that there is a shop in Michigan or Ohio that will rebuild a Kohler single cylinder for just $500.

If your mechanic is telling you that your tractor is old and on the verge of becoming a money pit he is not well informed--particularly if he suggests getting a big box variety mower. The 16 hp from Big Box will not come close to performing like the Ingersoll with just 12 hp--it's all about torque not hp. Think about this, if a new Vanguard engine is $1200 by itself and the Big Box store is selling a new 16 hp tractor for, say, $1800 do you think you're going to get as good of an engine? Someone with knowledge of the engine industry explained on another forum that the "consumer" quality engines are only designed to last about 500 hours compared with a Vanguard that should last 3000 and when the consumer engine is shot it's not rebuildable.

I think you're being far too optimistic about what your tractor can be sold for as is--$200-300 is more realistic.

Contact Brian and let us know what he says then we can give you some further advice.
Click to expand...
Bart, how would i get ahold of Brian??

I dont think that I would want to (or even able) to purchase a big box tractor for even $1800. I realize that they arent of the best quality even at that price. Realistically, I'll probably push mow until I can find some used cheap $200-$300 machine that still runs. At this point, I just need something to cut the grass and not so concerned about anything more. I have 3/4 of an acre so it's not a heck of alot....but just enough to need a rider.

Now, if indeed an Ingy my year is worth close to $2000 with a new powerplant, why wouldnt someone spend $500 and then drop in a brand new vanguard (or fix the old one)? Now if the running Ingy is worth $1500 ....then your estimate of $200-$300 as is ...would be more realistic. My wife is convinced that my tractor is worth $0.00 in it's current state and should be taken to the junkyard. I disagree and think it has "some" value......and hope that someone picks it up, repairs (or replaces engine) and is able to keep it running for 20+ years. Structurally it's quite sound. Understandably she is absolutely ****** that we spent the money we did and didnt get 5 hours out of it.

I understand its all about torque and have been trying to explain the difference between new and old ..... at this point its not going over too well She insists that the mechanic should have been able to tell us what was wrong before replacing the cylinder head. Try explaining the difference between a head and internal engine failure to a ****** off bride .....doesnt go over too well ... :duh:

Honestly, I think the reason the mower seized was because it ran hard with a bad cylinder for so long. I noticed it ran much quieter after replacing the head ...but the damage could have already been done internally....which led to the eventual engine failure
 
#33 ·
Lou,
Don't do anything hasty. Your tractor is worth whatever it's worth, whether you sell it tomorrow or next year at this time.

Anything can happen that can change your situation. Really good engines do appear and even brand new ones that will fit may surface for a price you can live with.

I know the wife is ****** but she needs to understand that these things do happen and what's done is done. At this point, it's all about figuring out the best way to solve this problem.

Perhaps this mechanic is OK but he certainly doesn't sound like he's experienced with Case and Ingersoll tractors to any extent. You've been around his list long enough to read reports from many very happy owners and you know that these machines have long, long lives and can be repaired easily and often for a very reasonable cost. So hang in there and let's see what happens.
 
#34 ·
louofm1 said:
Bart, how would i get ahold of Brian??

You can look him up in members list, Bhildret, or scan some of the threads as he posts here frequently. Or, someone who has his phone number may post it.

Realistically, I'll probably push mow until I can find some used cheap $200-$300 machine that still runs. At this point, I just need something to cut the grass and not so concerned about anything more.

If finances are tight that may be the best solution then you could hang onto the Ingy until time and money permit a proper repair.

Now, if indeed an Ingy my year is worth close to $2000 with a new powerplant, why wouldnt someone spend $500 and then drop in a brand new vanguard (or fix the old one)? Now if the running Ingy is worth $1500 ....then your estimate of $200-$300 as is ...would be more realistic.

In the end the value of anything is what you can get someone to pay and my estimates are just based on what I typically see things selling for. I imagine a dealer with your tractor and a new engine would be looking to get $2000 but he would, of course, be there to take care of any unexpected problems and would make sure there were no little problems that might be aggravating for a new owner. A private seller may get something closer to $1500 but you can't just take the restored value and subtract the new engine cost to get the non-running value. The buyer who will pay top dollar probably doesn't know much about working on tractors and doesn't want to mess around getting an engine--he will pay more for someone else to get it done for him.
Click to expand...
As for your wife, ask her if you spend $1200 on her today will she still provide good service in 30 years? Then duck.:sidelaugh
 
#35 · (Edited)
louofm1 said:
FOR SALE
1991 or 1992 Ingersoll with RM44 deck.... nice machine, 12.5 HP Vanguard engine needs repair or replacement. Everything else works well ...including hydraulics, etc. Deck (and machine) are in solid (very good) condition, new cylinder head and starter, recent Briggs rectifier, fuel filter, plugs, and other small parts.

Well ...it doesnt look good. Mechanic came by and called to tell me that the engine is definatly seized. He doesnt know exactly why ...says maybe Piston seized to cylinder wall or crank/rod seized ....he said its tough to tell without tearing into it....probably from heat, age or fatigue. He said it was not from lack of oil.

His honest opinion .... get another machine. He said that he can swap an engine or do whatever I want ...but a new similar engine is about $1200. Its tough to find a good used engine with a shaft that goes all the way through to power the PTO ...basically have to buy a new replacement or try to fix the old one. Then, he says, you never know ....something else could go to crap ....deck, rear end (its heavy duty), hydraulic problems etc. He said, the machine is old (though I realize its still a classic).

Im almost embarrassed to say this but he suggested I head down to ummmm....errr....a "big box store" and get a cub cadet or something modest with 16 or more HP based on my modest sized lot. Then, he says, everything is new....or pick up something used and cheap for sale by someone else.

Im sad ...and still dont know what to do. As stated before, I dont have the money to fix or repair what I have (or buy a new one), I dont want to see my baby go, I dont want to end up like Munderhill (with a new plastic hood) :duh: , I dont know :eek:mg:

I would love to hold onto my machine and see if I can fix it down the line but I simply dont have anywhere to store it...especially if i find something else. I will either sell it as is ..... or see if one of my other aquaintances ....who loves working on this stuff is willing to let me keep it at his farm until we can slowly repair it. If I sell as is for maybe $500-$600 or more (I hope) ....someone could end up with a very nice buy and hopefully get her going with a new or repaired powerplant. Even with a new Vanguard, they are still under $2000 for a 3000 series Ingy

Just throwing it out there .....anyone possibly interested this machine???
Click to expand...
I do not own a plastic hood tractor of any kind, Thank You!:00000060:
It did not replace the Ingy as I had the Conquest @ the same time. I have however added a Snapper RER that is an excellent mower. I could not pass it up for a mere 5 bills. See if you can find something similar.
I hope you do fix your Ingy as it's worth it.:fing32:

MU
 
#36 ·
munderhill said:
I do not own a plastic hood tractor of any kind, Thank You!:00000060:
It did not replace the Ingy as I had the Conquest @ the same time. I have however added a Snapper RER that is an excellent mower. I could not pass it up for a mere 5 bills. See if you can find something similar.
I hope you do fix your Ingy as it's worth it.:fing32:

MU
Click to expand...

Do you notice how touchy MU is these days???? You can chalk that up to post-partum depression. :bannana: :bannana:

It's only a matter of time before he relapses and the Case-itis flares back up. :sidelaugh He can fight it all he wants but sooner or later.......
 
#37 ·
MAN I would hate to see you bail on that tractor!! You know it's pretty clean, and in nice shape. All your issues have been engine related, and frankly a new engine is cheaper then a new mower. Motor swaps realy are not that hard. Its more then dooable for a homeowner, if they have any skills at all.
I would serch around for a new engine myself. Maybe eaven see if you can install a 16hp one. The Vangards have been proven to be a VERY good engine. I think you just got a dud.

So... for less then the cost of a Box store mower, you could have something that will last another 30 years!!!
 
#38 ·
Lou,
I had a brand new cub cadet/MTD from the big box store. Ran it for about 6 years before the tranny went out. Searched the internet and got a used and abused case 224 for about 300.00. Wife was constantly rolling her eyes. I plied her with the "it's all about recycling and putting yer money into what you believe in" pitch. ie: not buying throw away designed stuff and buying into consumerism, etc.. That gave me some room to manuever. Spent the rest of the season mowing with borrowed mower and string trimmer while rebuilding steering and linkage components on the case. Sent the motor out for re-build, with advice from members here.
Lemme tellya that the first rebuild went straight back in for a second! Can't say enuff about how important it is to find a solid competent machine shop to do the rebuild work for you. I finally located one and the work went smoothly and professionally. The cost was 350.00. New rod, piston, wristpin, rings, bored out the cylinder, set the crank shaft end play and adjusted the gear lash. Re cut the valves and reground the valve seats.
Just got it on the other night and ran it for an hour to break in. What a difference from the first rebuild job! Runs very smooth.
Point is I can tell you that I started this whole thing in the hole with my wife and have had to claw out of it ever since. All the while suffering the humiliating taunts of "I'll believe it when I see it.., etc,," at family reunions, Christmas holiday and so on.
Now that the motor is in and running well I feel like all the heavy lifting will have been worth it. My advice would be to:

Find a COMPETENT machine shop and get a rebuild estimate.

Try the 'not wanting to contribute to the disposable age we live in' pitch to get yourself some breathing room. Hey' it helped me some, it might go over with your bride : )

The advice here has been excellent and the members have been key to my rebuilding project. I think that you can have all the confidence knowing that you will have qualified advice to help you along the way if you choose to take on any of the work yourself.

I've experienced first hand the demise of a newly purchased big box store cub cadet. If I was willing to put up the money for a lawn mower purchased there or buying another motor for my ingy I'd go with the Ingy. Why support disposable design when you have a tractor who's design lends itself to easy rebuildability? (is rebuildability a word?) Why support MBA engineering?

Lastly, find a COMPETENT machine shop!

Good luck with your decision. I still have to get the deck back on and the wife is still givin me the "look". I think that it was the right way for me and hope that it will be for you.

Tim
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Thanks Tim, Bart and everyone else ...for all your support. Caseman has even been gracious enough to help me teardown my engine if I take it down to his place....wow! Tim, I will take what you said to heart ...regarding a possible rebuild with a competent shop only...should it come to that. Perhaps if we do the labor ourselves, it wont be too bad with a rebuild (if possible).

My wife is more than ****** about this whole thing. Where we disagree is that she feels its not worth it ....and I feel that it probably is worth repairing it. She's doing more than just rolling her eyes. Im check on some local option at the time but I'll keep everyone posted with progress. Like Tim, i may just spend the summmer doing manual lawn maintenance while I get this situation taken care of.
 
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