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IowaAndy

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I took delivery of a BX2350 with FEL and MMM in September. It had 0.4 hours on the meter.

I operated the tractor for a while, and noticed a high pitched whine coming from the rear axle. The next morning, (hour meter has 2.4 hours now) I started by checking all fluids. Rear axle was very low. Dipstick is about 3" long, and I used a stainless test rod to verify fluid level. It was 8" below the dipstick opening (about 6" lower than it should have been).

Since I work for a hydraulic component company, I immediately pulled a sample. Oil was dark, and smelled the way oil shouldn't smell.

Called dealer. His first offer was to drop off a jug of oil to top off the tractor. Wrong answer #1!!

I told him to pick up tractor.

Got a call at work the next day, and dealer said that tractor fluid level was just fine. I immediately drove to dealer to clarify this. Dealer pulled dipstick, showed me the wet dipstick, and asked why I thought it was low.

I showed him that you couldn't see the fluid when you look into the tractor's dipstick access. The fluid on the stick was splashed on from moving the tractor around.

The oil sample tested at 22/22/19 (I had to have it tested myself). This means that (compared to when the tractor shipped) the large particle contamination in my tractor was 40 times higher. I wasn't happy...

So, Kubota won't do anything for me (they don't feel there is a problem). The dealer will throw in a free 50 hour fluid change.

Am I out of line turning the tractor back over? My training and experience (and the oil sample) indicate that damage was done. This contamination is now in the steering unit, and the implement valves as well. The tractor now has a grand total of 2.5 hours. It was delivered, I had it at my place for 60 hours, and now its been at the dealer for a month while I play phone tag with people at Kubota.

Any thoughts?

IowaAndy
 
#2 ·
take it back to your place and kill it, it's under warranty, so they have to fix it when it breaks...just make sure you keep fluid levels up...
 
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#3 ·
Andy,

First, welcome to the forum! :Welcome1: But sorry to hear of your woes, and I must say, the first I've heard of this with a new Kubota. Just to clarify (since I'm not a hydraulic or fluid engineer) what exactly does the reading 22/22/19 mean?

If I understand your post correctly, you think the tractor was shipped with hydraulic fluid levels very low, and because it was operated for 2.5 hrs this way, that damage has been done to the internals. Is this correct? If so, then I would think Kubota would jump at a replacement. But the problem here is your dealer. Part of his responsibility when delivering machines is to go over everything (bolt torques, fluid levels etc) and it sounds like he did not do his job. Therefore, he doesn't want to look bad to Kubota and is saying that he checked the level. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but maybe a second more frank talk with your dealer, and then, depending on the outcome, some time with Kubota directly (not sure if they operate their customer service the way Deere does or not).

Let us know how you make out.
 
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#4 ·
Welcome aboard.
A few observations.
Theres going to be breakin wear during the 1st 50 hrs and that is why Kubota specs an oil & filter change at 50 hrs. It's possible your readings of 22/22/19 is normal for a new unit. Course I don't know what these readings pertain to and it's also possible that they could be higher than normal. In any case you may need to talk with a regional Kubota rep to get the correct answer.

HST's will whine and the whine will increase along with an increase in load. Climbing a hill, pulling a heavy load etc., will produce your loudest whines while conversely they'll barely whine under light loads.
I've noticed my loudest whine when I try to pull out with the parking brake on :D
If the louder whine you heard occured under light loads then you might have a problem. I would try to compare with another BX at the dealer.
It is true that running any HST when it's very low on fluid can cause a premature failure and unfortunately it takes awhile to show up. I've read of a few cases where the HST filter was damaged allowing the fluid to leak out. A couple machines experienced HST failure within 100-150 hrs whilst a couple others are still going strong 100's of hrs later.

The HST AND front axle dip sticks are VERY hard to read since the fluid is clear. At 1st I would pull the dip stick and lay it on a piece of napkin, compareing the resulting stain to the level markings on the dip stick. Then I read of where someone painted the dipstick white where the markings are and this works even better.

If your not satisfied with your dealer's answers, escalate to Kubota's regional rep. Kubota wants to keep you happy but keep in mind that they also want us to deal with their dealer network and only escalate when all else fails.
If those numbers are out of the ordinary for breakin they should acknowledge it.
Good luck
 
#5 ·
With 2.5 hours on the unit I would think the dealer will just make a switch to make you happy. Keeping your old MMM, and FEL. This should happen as soon as you talk about the calling the area rep to help with this problem. The area JD rep was a huge help when I had problems and wanted to know more about how the dealer responded to my problem.

As JDFAN said what do the numbers mean? :duh:
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
The ISO 22/22/19 identifies the amount of contamination in a fluid.

Each number represents an allowable range of contamination (per ml of fluid)for a particular particle size. The first number is the measure of 4 micrometer particles, the second number is the measure of 6 micrometer particles, and the last number is the measure of 14 micrometer particles.

Each time you increase one of the numbers by 1, the amount of particles doubles. For instance, an ISO code of 20/18/13 means the fluid has 40-80 particles that are 14 micrometers in size per milliliter. If you increase the code to 20/18/14, it now means the fluid has 80-160 particles.

Most manufacturers ship their tractors at 20/18/13. I strongly suspect Kubota does the same (it wouldn't make sense for a global company like Kubota to ship machines any dirtier than their competitors). Since my oil tested 22/22/19, it means:

1. The 4 micrometer particles were about 4 times higher than when the tractor shipped

2. The 6 micrometer particles were about 16 times higher than when the tractor shipped

3. The 14 micrometer particles were about 60 times higher than when the tractor shipped (and these are the most damaging particles)

I've seen particle counts on tractors as they are running on end-of-line startups. I agree that hydraulic systems often will spike after startup. Unless there is a system problem, however, the hydraulic fluid contamination level shouldn't spike up after the first 20-30 minutes of running. Exceptions to this would be if there was a TON of contamination in the loader when the dealer installs it. Even then, within another 20 minutes of operation, the system should have cleaned itself to at least 20/18/13.

I have direct experience with Caterpillar equipment that is running 18/16/11 or better within 30 minutes of startup.

The 50 hour oil change has several benefits. Normally the startup filter is close to capacity within this time period. This is also a good time for a dealer or owner to inspect for leaks, re-torque joints, etc... The hydraulic fluid, if properly filtered, is barely broken in. Several OEM's are starting to deliver machines with normal first oil change intervals (500hours, etc..) since the fluids haven't sheared down, or started to breakdown.

Ok, enough hydraulic talk for now... I'm contacting the dealer today to push my issue! Thanks for all the support! I really like the Kubota tractor, but dealer relationship is critical for me as well.

As a side note, the dealer also didn't deliver an owner's manual, offer me a loaner while we resolve this, or even cover the tractor (which has been parked outside since it was picked up by the dealer). These aren't big issues, but sometimes its the little things that indicates the quality of a dealer...

IowaAndy
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
I also forgot to mention I compared the noise (whine) to two other BX2350's sitting at the dealer. Mine was the loudest in amplitude, although the other two did make a similar noise at high idle. The dealer dismissed this, saying they all whine pretty loud. Funny thing is the ones I test drove in August didn't, even though I specifically listen for hydraulic noise while operating machines (curse of being a hydraulic engineer).

IowaAndy
 
#8 ·
Andy,

Thanks for the explanation. When we start a hydraulic forum here, I'll be the first to recommend you be the mod! :sidelaugh As for your issues with the tractor/dealer, good luck and please keep us posted as to how you make out.

For some of you lurkers out there, Andy's post illustrates why the color of the tractor is often secondary to the quality/caliber of dealership.
 
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Discussion starter · #9 ·
Latest update:

Dealer flushed system, and is delivering tractor to house tomorrow. Dealer is also providing the 50 hour maintenance free of charge.

I will pull another oil sample at 10 hours on the meter. I'm satisfied after speaking to several Kubota engineers. If I see any additional brass in the oil, its going in for a major operation...

Bottom line is still - Keep your fluid levels up, and keep the fluid clean!!


IowaAndy
 
#10 ·
Great! Glad it all worked out and you were so fastidious with your checking of fluid levels. :thThumbsU
 
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#12 ·
Does anyone make a "consumer level" oil testing kit? I'd never know the oil was flakey when I change mine. I do sop some up on a paper towel and look at it under a bright light though. It's the only way I know to "test" oil in my shop. Fairly small "stuff" can be seen with an ordinary magnifying glass. What the "stuff" IS is anybody's guess.
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Caterpillar dealers are also a great source for oil sample kits, although I'm not sure the price. Normally in the central U.S a basic (particle count and general analysis) oil sample should run you $25-50. To do a full material composition, determine water content, etc... expect to pay $125-175. This may seem like a lot, but it doesn't take many gallons of hydraulic fluid to offset the sampling price.

Construction companies, our military, and several government services use oil sampling instead of hour intervals to determine oil changes for a lot of equipment. I've seen great oil samples on machines with 1500+ hours on a change. If you own multiple machines, it can really add up to $$$ savings over a few years.

By the way, I've seen a lot of people online discussing hydraulic fluids. If you really want to splurge, and consider a top of the line fluid, consider Mobil full synthetic (or similar full synthetics). Very good shear stability (won't shear down), long life, and ubeatable hydrodynamic properties. After my 50 hour change I plan on switching the Kubota over to Mobil synthetic fluids. You can find the data sheets on the web. (and no, I don't work for Mobil)

IowaAndy
 
#15 ·
IowaAndy,

I'm about to do a 300 hr. service on my 2210 and based on a recommendation, picked up 5 gals of Amsoil ATH05 Synthetic Hydraulic Fluid. Have you had any experience with this product, and if so, how does it stack up against Mobil-1?
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
Spec's show a good overall oil. The problem is that the ATH05 doesn't talk about yellow metal corrosion protection. You can run into issues with non-synthetic versions of this type of fluid (universal tractor fluids) when it comes to your piston slippers and valve plates in the hydro. Its still a solid looking fluid from the data I've seen. If this oil was right next to the Mobil, I wouldn't feel nervous about either one!
 
#17 ·
So, you don't think I'll be doing wrong by going to this fluid? I'd hate to t-rex 5 gal's! :sidelaugh
 
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#19 ·
Iowa Andy,
I am sorry to hear about your problem. I would certainly keep an eye on things and since you can, keep on taking your Hydro fluid samples. Let us know about any changes too. A very interesting post.

By the way, what is normal feel for the rear axle after a few hours hard work? I saw where someone asked that question and said he could not hold his hand on the rear axle for the heat and thought it indicated a problem. I was curious and checked my BX's rear axle after working and it was indeed pretty warm to the touch. The fluid level is full and clear. It smells ok too. Is a very warm axle after work a bad sign? I am not sure now. Is feel a reliable way to check oil temps in the tranny? Thanks and-
Take care,
TPS
 
#20 ·
IowaAndy, good to see that Kubota and your dealer are working with you. Also thanks for explaining the oil analysis. I've had no reason to test my oil but may just for GP :D
By the way, what is normal feel for the rear axle after a few hours hard work?
Click to expand...
Not IowaAndy but it is normal to be too hot to the touch when working on a hot day.
I've read where several posters have taken temperature readings with those hand held infared temp testers and have posted that on a hot day an HST will measure between 75 to 100 degrees hotter than the ambient outside temp. i.e. much too hot to touch :D
 
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