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HydroHarold

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Reinstalling the blades on my JD 48C deck I wondered exactly what torque I was getting with my 1/2" rachet handle and what the correct torque was supposed to be. I checked the manual and 50ft.lbs. was the correct answer, far less than I had been grunting them down (average 70ft.lbs). But...

Given the friction surface between the blade and the mounting surfaces, is 50ft.lbs. supposed to allow a "safety clutch" movement if the blade hits an obstruction? Are we getting any spindle/belt protection by the setting or is it just a figure that is minimum to assure locking down the blades? Any ideas?
 
My service manual for my L-120 John Deere lawn tractor says the torque for the 2 cap screws is 46 foot pounds. I do have a concern as generally torque is applied to the nut so I think the operators manual errs on adding 10 percent to the torque as it is the min. amount to keeping the blades fully engaged on the spindle. When I torqued mine the last time they were off, I actually torqued mine to 50 ft. lbs. (I never even gave it a thought as that was the torque I used on my old Murray and the Craftsman that I had before)
 
Harold, remind me never to pick a fight with you. I use a 1/2" impact on mine. On the first setting, 100lbs, I just run it down until it rattles a couple of times, and say, torque-torque, torque-torque. They have never backed off, and no warped blades; however, that's just my method.

Bruce L~
 
Bruceman, You might not want to do this as this (do not laugh) but you could stretch the bolts to the point of breaking them off, I use "COULD" in the literal sense. I have done that and it was a PITA because I did it on my old Murray. You might as well say I had to buy a new spindle as I could not easy out the broken bolt and heat and a easy out did not work.
 
I tighten mine till JUST after the bolt snaps, then back off an 1/8 turn. Always worked for me. :D :D


I went through this last year. I was checking the level of my deck, and looked under and one blade had just one bolt holding it on, and the other two were verry loose, and about ready to fall off. Now I had had no problems with this deck, just happand to try to level it. Shudder to think what would have happanded if that blade came off.
 
:1106:

O.K. Here's the deal on torque from someone who's spent a lot of time dealing with the scientific end of it. :00000060:

When you torque a bolt, you're doing one of two things; you're either stretching the bolt itself to supply the clamping load, or you're distorting the threads on the softest piece (bolt or hole) to provide the clamping. Most of the time, the recommended torque is based on the clamping load needed and what is required to keep the bolt from backing out or breaking. Usually the size and grade of the bolt determine this, but you do find custom applications.

Over time, the bolts will succomb to metal fatigue due to the stretching and break anyway, just like a paperclip. The amount of torque required can be augmented by the use of washers (spreading the load over a larger area), lock washers and Loctite (to reduce the possibility of a bolt backing out). However, the use of washers and Loctite should be in the design from the beginning. I wouldn't recommend adding one to your application if it wasn't originally used unless you've elongated the clearance hole in the workpiece being clamped.

Another possible reason to add a lockwasher later in a part's life is when the original threaded hole was threaded by the bolt and if the bolt is long enough to still provide 3 full threads of engagement. Thread-cutting bolts usually don't cut the threads very deep, and therefore the hole's threads are more likely to strip out when re-installing the bolt.

Tightening a nut is basically the same, but the nut's threads should be softer than the bolt/stud if the bolt/stud isn't easy to replace. Most of the time though, the nut will be made of the harder material to provide the maximum clamping load by stretching the bolt or stud. :) I said "nut" and "stud" in the same sentence.

Anyway, that's our science lesson for the morning. Everyone is dismissed for recess! :trink40:
 
Olds455 made some very good points. Exceeding the specified torque on any fastener is one of the best ways I know of to strip out the theads of the bolt, nut, or threaded hole; break off the bolt, and in general fatigue the bolt and or in this case the spindle shaft with its interior threading. Unless you like installing helicoil kits or drilling and taping to the next larger size fastener; I STRONGLY recomend that you tighten to the specified torque with a know good torque wrench (preferably a recently calibrated one if you have that option available to you) In a bind if you have no torque wrench and you must improvise; use 1/3 wrench arc AFTER the fastern has seated on the threads against item it is holding.

In my previous life and occupation, NOTHING was tightened down without using a torque wrench or observing specified wrench arc techique.
 
I had an incident where I rented a walk behind brush hog (basically an overgrown push mower). I started the thing up and after around 2-3 minutes, I think to my self, "this thing sucks. Every time it goes over a small sapling, it stops the blade." I stopped the machine and took a peek under the deck and sure enough, the blade is spinning freely and isn't even close to seated.

I grabbed my impact wrench, torqued it down and obviously it worked great after that.

When I returned the machine after using it, I chewed the guy out for putting me in harms way as the blade could have easily come off the spindle and inflicted bodily or property damage. His excuse was that they use a torque wrench to torque the blades down and the wrench may need an adjustment!!!

Needless to say, I got the rental price reduced by 75%.

I never rented from that place after that!
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
Well all this "bolt stretching" and "nut tweaking" (especially the latter!) is certainly food for thought. It appears on my deck that the torque is applied to a concave washer drawing it flat by the bolt head which transfers the clamping force to the lower face of the blade and then to the spindle surface...

Having said that I return to my original fog enshrouded question: Are we getting any "safety clutch" effect from the manufacturers settings or do they want the blades and spindles effectively one piece (certain to damage parts during foreign object contact)?

Special thanks to Olds and Chip for the tech heads up. I especially like to know what is really happening to mechanical stuff! Leolav, you reminded me of a "Sadder but Wiser" incident with a Gravely L 30" deck that I lived through. I had both machines on the truck tilted up, blades off for sharpening and replaced them on the spindles. Something took me away from the job and when I came back I pulled out the blocks and went to the job. "That dang attachment clutch must have backed off!", says I winding 'er up in high range. Just about the time she hit top blade rpm (which seemed to take forever) the blade left the machine rapidly from the left front chopping a good sized nick out of the side skid mount. Lucky me, no injury AND nobody around to see my dumb a$$ move and after about an hour I did locate the blade washers and nut. I HEARD where the blade went, about twenty feet into the brush and found that right away. Soooo boys and girls don't overtighten 'em but make dang SURE you tightened 'em!

:Tractor2:
 
Harold, my opinion would be that you may get some slip clutch effect protection from the cupped washers with a fiber washer in between on both sides of the blade which I have seen in the past. But in general, I would say no.
 
Wouldn't the belt/pulley interface provide any necessary slip upon hitting an obstacle?

These days a lot of manufacturers utilize mower blades that have a specially shaped mounting hole (5-6 lobed, star, etc) that mates to a corresponding boss on the spindle, and there's no way for those to 'give'.

Just a thought.
 
CatDaddy said:
Wouldn't the belt/pulley interface provide any necessary slip upon hitting an obstacle?

These days a lot of manufacturers utilize mower blades that have a specially shaped mounting hole (5-6 lobed, star, etc) that mates to a corresponding boss on the spindle, and there's no way for those to 'give'.

Just a thought.
CD. the scary part is just this past weekend i saw the star shaped holder snapped off of a spindle on a craftsman mower. im guessing it got whacked pretty hard and destroyed the blade as well but when i pulled this blade the peice fell on the ground and i had to take a 2nd look! i cant beleive the spindle is still good.
 
CatDaddy said:
Wouldn't the belt/pulley interface provide any necessary slip upon hitting an obstacle?

These days a lot of manufacturers utilize mower blades that have a specially shaped mounting hole (5-6 lobed, star, etc) that mates to a corresponding boss on the spindle, and there's no way for those to 'give'.

Just a thought.
:ditto:

The GT-5000 Craftsman's have the star hole design. If there is to be any slippage, it is going to have to be a belt. I would torque to specs, and forget about it!
 
HydroHarold said:
Having said that I return to my original fog enshrouded question: Are we getting any "safety clutch" effect from the manufacturers settings or do they want the blades and spindles effectively one piece (certain to damage parts during foreign object contact)?
:Tractor2:
Harold, it depends on the interface between the blade and the spindle. On AYP units, the star pattern effectively locks the blade to the spindle to prevent slipping. In this case, the bolt and washer are only providing a clamping load to keep the blade from coming off the star. Some manufacturers have a round hole in the blade so that it probably is possible for the blade to slip under the bolt should it make an abrupt stop. I would think that the belt would slip before the bolt if it were properly tightened, but I'm not sure. On a new tractor, it would probably stall the engine. Those decks that use the timing belt would be in a world of hurt if the blade slipped on the spindle too!
 
Ingersoll444 said:
Well my ingersolls mount with two bolts per blade. No slip at all there. Well Unless one of them falls off.
Thats the same as on my John Deere L-120, it to has 2 bolt design and as the spindle mount is concaved up so the blade will fit one way (that Michael proofs it from me putting on the blades Upside downROF )
 
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