OK - so it is a stupid thing, but it snuck up on me. I have what I believe to be an 8179KT. It is powered by a M16 Kohler 2 cyl. I was using it for the last time in Vermont before bringing it home to Mass for the winter. Somehow the ignition remained in the "start position" instead of springing back to the "run position". I discovered this when I went to shut it off. It had been running for maybe 45min to an hour. Upon discovering, I tried to start it. Nothing when turning the key. Pushed it onto trailer and now at home still nothing. Where do I begin?
need some suggestions please
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Canary Al
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Thing is right.
The old single post solenoid is no longer made and the two terminal version is all that is available.
The old single post solenoid is no longer made and the two terminal version is all that is available.
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So just to be clear - it matters not, which small post i connect to?
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If one doesn't work the other will so you have a 50-50 chance of getting it right. You won't hurt anything by using the wrong terminal. It just won't work is all.
The terminals should be marked "S" and "I". Use the terminal labeled "S".
The terminals should be marked "S" and "I". Use the terminal labeled "S".
soleniods that look like this was made in 2 versions. One with 1 small terminal and one with 2 small terminals. The 1 small terminal version seems to be harder to find and is grounded to the case (mounting bracket) so that when the power is applied to the 1 small post the soleniod will activate. The one with 2 terminals is not grounded to the case and requires power applied to 1 terminal and ground applied to the other small terminal. It's real easy to use the 2 terminal soleniod just run a short jumper wire from one of the small terminals to one of the mounting bolts.That solenoid has two control terminals. Not exactly a drop in replacement.
Below is a 1996 F350 Ford solenoid available at the auto parts store. I think that one is a match.
Any 12 volt solenoid with a single small terminal will work.
![Image]()
BTW: Gravely used the 2 terminal solenoid on the 24G and ran the ground side thru the fwd/rev and pto safty switches. Jason
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Actually there are 3 versions around.
1 - single small terminal - this is what is usually found on the 800/8000/5000 tractors.
2 - two small terminals - Ford automotive solenoid. On a Ford car or truck, one terminal is for the solenoid coil and the other goes to the + terminal of the ignition coil. The second terminal supplies +12 volts to the ignition coil while cranking for easier starting. Can be used on the 800/8000 tractors. Ignore the "I" terminal.
3 - two small terminals - small engine solenoid. The two terminals are connected to the solenoid coil and when using this one to replace a single terminal solenoid, one terminal goes to the ignition switch and the other to ground. These are the ones typically found on the G series and Pro series tractors. On the G and Pro series, the ground side is usually connected to the safety system switches and then to ground.
There may be a 4th version but I have not seen it yet.
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Some good news to report - I repaced the starter, solenoid, and ingnition switch with new parts. I have to admit I did not do any of the testing suggested by Arcam 8123 - maybe should have Ron. It started no problem - so that means i did not damage my magneto.:trink40: Good.
Before i got it started i was able to confirm the starter was releasing properly :fing32: .... but. With the engine running fine I turned the new ignition switch to the "off" position which had no effect - just kept on running. I pulled the wire off the plug on the nearest side and it died. I re-attached the wire and turned the key to the "on" position being careful not to hit the "start" position. Tractor started immediately as if I had turned to start position. I repeated the earlier process to stall it.
I double checked all the connections and re-examined the wires. Nothing seemed to be amiss. Confirmed once again the problem with the same thing happening. What now? :sad_02:
Before i got it started i was able to confirm the starter was releasing properly :fing32: .... but. With the engine running fine I turned the new ignition switch to the "off" position which had no effect - just kept on running. I pulled the wire off the plug on the nearest side and it died. I re-attached the wire and turned the key to the "on" position being careful not to hit the "start" position. Tractor started immediately as if I had turned to start position. I repeated the earlier process to stall it.
I double checked all the connections and re-examined the wires. Nothing seemed to be amiss. Confirmed once again the problem with the same thing happening. What now? :sad_02:
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I am with Don. Something else is wrong. Time to disconnect the starter and trace out what is going on.
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It is starting because the plugs are firing. The starter is not turning after it fires. The starter disengages as it should. I stalled it to stop it - by pulling one wire off a sparkplug, with the key remaining in the off position.
Once stopped this way, if i return the wire to the plug i pulled it off to stop it, and turn the key to the "on" position, (not "start" position) it cranks, starts easily, the starter motor disengages properly. Returning the key to "off" position has no effect (it keeps running) - i then re-stall it as above. Huh?
I installed a brand new Stens 430-070 - good for Gravely 044767 ingition switch.
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Wgat you are saying is that it cranks when in the ON position. If that is NOT the case then all that is missing in the grounding of the kill wire.
Piece of cake.
What is missing is the connection from the "M" terminal on the ignition switch to the kill wire at the engine.
Simply trace it out and find out why that wire is not being connected to ground when the switch is in the "OFF" position.
Magnetos need to have their kill wire connected to ground to stop the engine.
Piece of cake.
What is missing is the connection from the "M" terminal on the ignition switch to the kill wire at the engine.
Simply trace it out and find out why that wire is not being connected to ground when the switch is in the "OFF" position.
Magnetos need to have their kill wire connected to ground to stop the engine.
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I can disconnect the starter but am not certain what steps to take to "trace out what is going on". Detailed instruction on that would be very helpful.
Some thoughts i have had ponderiing this for the last 5 hours - Posted is a pic i took while taking the shroud off to remove the starter - Yes I know i took more off than I needed to. The wires in the top forefront of this pic, i disconnected. There are 2 wires here, and they are not in a configuration that can only go in 1 way, perhaps I reversed them? I will check that in the morning - have already printed off the pic, to take to the tractor to check.
Also i followed the directions that came from the manufacturer about the 2nd small (extra) post on the new solenoid, which said to ignore the extra small post. Much was discussed regarding the solenoid and the extra post earlier in this thread. There seemed to be contradictory opinions as to what to do with it. ie: ignore it or ground it. I ignored it as the direction that came with it said to do. There is of course a slim chance I connected to the wrong small post. That is a very slim possibility. might that cause this?
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I believe i can figure that out Richard. I'm thinking i reversed tose wires in the pic i just posted. I'll know in the morning.
Thanks, Al
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I think you may have the two wires swapped at the engine. One wire should go to the regulator. That one should have 12 volts on it with the ignition switch in the "ON" position. The other is the kill wire. It should be grounded when the ignition switch is in the OFF position.
I will have to provide more details tomorrow. Too tired tonight.
I will have to provide more details tomorrow. Too tired tonight.
No it wouldn't cause it because of the design of the solenoid. If you misconnected the two at the rear of the engine, it would not shut off. With both disconnected, start the engine. You should see voltage on one and none on the other to ground. Same for the switch end harness. The two with voltage go together. The two without should be the mag connections.
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I went over the electrical system today. I have come to the conclusion the problem must be the new ignition switch. I have little experience at this but can follow logic.
First of all, regarding the 2-wire connection I referred to and posted a picture of earlier, I had put that back together accurately. I confirmed this via a picture I took while taking the shroud off AND by following logic (I think). Anyway by the picture it is connected as it was before this problem started. I did the check Don instructed on these wires – 1 measured no voltage. The other measured between .91 to 1.35 volts.
One wire that connects at this point, goes one way to the center clip of the 3 clip harness that plugs onto the rectifier/regulator on the top of the engine shroud. That same wire goes the other way to connect to the ignition switch and also on one side of the lights switch. (I included a drawing below of all the wires in my system) I checked the wire both ways for continuity – it checks out.
The other wire connecting at this point goes one way to the ignition switch – the other way down through a clip on the shroud, through which the 2 sparkplug wires also pass. Continuity was OK in both directions. The diagram on page 72 of the engine service manuel identifies this wire at the ignition module (magneto) as the “kill wire”. While I had the shroud off I cleaned up the connection on this wire.
The other two wires on the 3 clip harness that plugs onto the rectifier/regulator on the top of the engine shroud, on the outside clips, are routed down behind the flywheel. I do not know what they connect to and did not attempt to check them for continuity. Since the engine runs I was guessing they are OK.
I did a test of my own that I thought might cause the engine to stop as it should when the key is turned off. Disappointingly the engine continued to run. This was my test. With a wire having an alligator clip at each end I connected to the end of the kill wire coming up from the ignition module under the shroud. The other end I connected to a bare metal spot on the top of the engine. It is my understanding the engine should stop with that. It continued to run..
I took the harness clip (5 female receptors for the 5 posts on the ignition switch) off the ignition switch and checked continuity if the wires coming to that clip from the fuse, the center clip on the engine shroud, and the lights switch. I am assuming the wire from the solenoid to the ignition switch is OK as the solenoid activates the starter.
So I am still baffled. I can find no wires which are burned out. The ignition module (Magneto) causes the engine to have spark and run so it is OK? My test of the kill wire makes me wonder if this is what got damaged. Come to think of it perhaps it proves nothing is wrong with the new ignition switch.
One last thing – After the new ignition switch, solenoid, and starter were in place – the very first time I cranked it – the starter reacted to the “on” position as it should (no reaction) the starter only cranked by turning to the “start” position (as it should). It was only after that initial startup that the “on” position became the “start” position, and the “off” position will stop the starter motor but will not shut off the engine. Perhaps something got damaged then? I’m baffled. I have posted some pics of spots on the engine discussed here, and my own crude drawing of the connections in my tractor’s system.
First of all, regarding the 2-wire connection I referred to and posted a picture of earlier, I had put that back together accurately. I confirmed this via a picture I took while taking the shroud off AND by following logic (I think). Anyway by the picture it is connected as it was before this problem started. I did the check Don instructed on these wires – 1 measured no voltage. The other measured between .91 to 1.35 volts.
One wire that connects at this point, goes one way to the center clip of the 3 clip harness that plugs onto the rectifier/regulator on the top of the engine shroud. That same wire goes the other way to connect to the ignition switch and also on one side of the lights switch. (I included a drawing below of all the wires in my system) I checked the wire both ways for continuity – it checks out.
The other wire connecting at this point goes one way to the ignition switch – the other way down through a clip on the shroud, through which the 2 sparkplug wires also pass. Continuity was OK in both directions. The diagram on page 72 of the engine service manuel identifies this wire at the ignition module (magneto) as the “kill wire”. While I had the shroud off I cleaned up the connection on this wire.
The other two wires on the 3 clip harness that plugs onto the rectifier/regulator on the top of the engine shroud, on the outside clips, are routed down behind the flywheel. I do not know what they connect to and did not attempt to check them for continuity. Since the engine runs I was guessing they are OK.
I did a test of my own that I thought might cause the engine to stop as it should when the key is turned off. Disappointingly the engine continued to run. This was my test. With a wire having an alligator clip at each end I connected to the end of the kill wire coming up from the ignition module under the shroud. The other end I connected to a bare metal spot on the top of the engine. It is my understanding the engine should stop with that. It continued to run..
I took the harness clip (5 female receptors for the 5 posts on the ignition switch) off the ignition switch and checked continuity if the wires coming to that clip from the fuse, the center clip on the engine shroud, and the lights switch. I am assuming the wire from the solenoid to the ignition switch is OK as the solenoid activates the starter.
So I am still baffled. I can find no wires which are burned out. The ignition module (Magneto) causes the engine to have spark and run so it is OK? My test of the kill wire makes me wonder if this is what got damaged. Come to think of it perhaps it proves nothing is wrong with the new ignition switch.
One last thing – After the new ignition switch, solenoid, and starter were in place – the very first time I cranked it – the starter reacted to the “on” position as it should (no reaction) the starter only cranked by turning to the “start” position (as it should). It was only after that initial startup that the “on” position became the “start” position, and the “off” position will stop the starter motor but will not shut off the engine. Perhaps something got damaged then? I’m baffled. I have posted some pics of spots on the engine discussed here, and my own crude drawing of the connections in my tractor’s system.
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Your drawing is pretty good. The only think lacking is the terminal designations on the ignition switch.
Since the solenoid is being activated when the switch is in the "on" position, that is not good. Since this is a 8000 then I would start by disconnecting the cable to the starter. That way if the solenoid is activated, the engine will not crank.
Next,find out why the solenoid control terminal is seeing +12 volts when the ignition switch is on the "ON" position. Either there are two wires touching, there is a miring error, or the new switch is defective. The ignition switch terminal "S" should only go to the solenoid control terminal via the PTO and neutral safety switches.
Since the solenoid is being activated when the switch is in the "on" position, that is not good. Since this is a 8000 then I would start by disconnecting the cable to the starter. That way if the solenoid is activated, the engine will not crank.
Next,find out why the solenoid control terminal is seeing +12 volts when the ignition switch is on the "ON" position. Either there are two wires touching, there is a miring error, or the new switch is defective. The ignition switch terminal "S" should only go to the solenoid control terminal via the PTO and neutral safety switches.
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Richard - I diagrammed the ignition switch connections when i was checking continuity on each post. later when I went to post about what i have done so far, i found myself in conflict with what i remembered and what my notes said regarding those connections. i have to double check it before adding that info to my post.
I believe the wire goes directly from the "s" terminal on the ignition to the solenoid control post. That's the way it was when i bought the tractor. I'll double check that tomorrow.
Next,find out why the solenoid control terminal is seeing +12 volts when the ignition switch is on the "ON" position.
How do i do this? Thanks, Al
I believe the wire goes directly from the "s" terminal on the ignition to the solenoid control post. That's the way it was when i bought the tractor. I'll double check that tomorrow.
Next,find out why the solenoid control terminal is seeing +12 volts when the ignition switch is on the "ON" position.
How do i do this? Thanks, Al
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I would first verify that the solenoid has + 12 volts on the control terminal with the switch in the "on" position. Next I would unplug the ignition switch and make sure the voltage goes away. Then I would verify operation of the switch with an ohmmeter. Most notably if the B and S terminals are not connected when the switch is in the ON position. I would also verify that the S terminal is connected to the solenoid and the B terminal to the battery.
If the switch shows continuity between B and S when ON then the switch is defective.
If the switch shows continuity between B and S when ON then the switch is defective.
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Actually - to my slight surprise - I understand your instructions, and see how doing these things will get some answers. :thanku: Richard.
Al
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Well here are some facts I learned from testing today. I hope a trained and experienced eye can uncover the problem with this info.
I took the wire that goes to the starter off the solenoid. Next I checked the voltage on the 3 used terminals with the key “on” – “off” and with the 5-pin connector removed from the ignition switch. Here are the results
I took the wire that goes to the starter off the solenoid. Next I checked the voltage on the 3 used terminals with the key “on” – “off” and with the 5-pin connector removed from the ignition switch. Here are the results
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