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3PH and FEL controller questions (BX1860)

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Todds112

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I know there is no down pressure, but when the hitch is down, is it locked in the down position, or is it like the float position on the loader?

Also on the loader control, what is the detent to the right past dump (3 o'clock). Just says it's for "other uses" or something like that in the manual.

Getting alot of seat time and the controls are starting to feel natural. Been trying to run it at different RPM setting. The controls are definitely more sensitive at the higher RPM's.
 
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#2 ·
Have owed a BX1860 for about three weeks longer than you and it looks like you have me beat in operating hours, so can't be much help other than to say, good questions. I presume the three o'clock on the joystick is an easy function for the hydraulics in rolling the bucket to dump so they provide a lower flow for this most likely to be frequent use. If another implement (and I can only guess as to what) needs more punch, the option is there. Only guessing. As for the three point at bottom, I'm so glad you asked because I've been hoping by lowering it, I'm relieving the pressure as the manual instructs. For both our sakes, I'm wishing for one of the CUT masters will come along with some answers. Thanks for asking.

Bryan
 
#3 ·
The 3PH floats in any position. You can see this bylifting the arms by hand. Usually, the implement weight keeps the down pressure. Some implements can take added weight for ground engaging.

The right detent on the FEL valve is exactly what BXIluvyu said it is...a controlled speed dump feature applicable for use with most materials. :trink40:
 
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#4 ·
APinNY said:
... right detent on the FEL valve is exactly what BXIluvyu said it is...a controlled speed dump feature applicable for use with most materials. :trink40:
Click to expand...
Al, Just trying to better understand this. Are you saying this position allows the bucket to dump faster when there is a load in it?

If so, that sounds similar to what JD calls "bucket regen". We were just discussing it yesterday here in this thread. Does this sound like the same feature?
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Seems like it dumps slower in that position. Or is that the idea, "controlled" a slower even dump. Like if you were spreading gravel on a drive. Put it into that position and it dumps at a slow even rate so you can spread it evenly. Does that make sense?
 
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#6 ·
Good answers, I'll just add my $0.02 too :D

Re. FEL control valve. Pushing the joy stick all the way to the right then past the detent is the regen position. What this gives you is a fast dump (removes all power to the ram) when using it w/the FEL and it also provides additonal functions when it's used w/a front blade, power brush etc.
There is also another regen position on the FEL joystick control and this is when the lever is pushed full forward then past the detent. This gives the FEL bucket a "float" function.(removes all down pressure to the FEL). This is handy when scraping snow and/or other debris when one doesn't want to apply any down pressure to the FEL bucket and have it float on the surface.

re. 3PH control. Just about all of the tractors on the market don't have down pressure on the 3PH. The weight of the 3ph assembly plus the implement coupled w/the removal of lift pressure on the piston allows the 3PH to drop. The BX's have an adjustment knob directly under the operators position that will adjust the speed of the 3PH drop. This is useful when a heavy implement is mounted and one wants it to slowly drop but most folks leave the knob full open and adjust the drop speed via the lever.
On the older BX's (00 & 30 series), the 3PH will hold the lift position when the lever is returned to the center position. There is some amount of float in the 3PH but this is due to the play in all the linkages ( and 3PH piston) and should not be constured as draft control. Draft control isn't available on BX's nor B's. Same goes for the QIV (quarter inching valve) found on the newer 50 & 60 series BX's. The QIV gives more control over the height of the 3ph than the previous std valve but it does not have draft control either. Draft control allows the implement mounted on the 3PH to "float" so as to maintain the same depth no matter if the terrain raises for falls off.
With all that said, some folks can force the 3PH to float by holding the lever in the full down position. Since a properly adjusted 3PH control on all BX's should always return to the center postion when released, which "should' keep the 3PH (and implemnt) at whatever position it was in when the lever was centered, one has to hold the lever in the full down position inorder to remove all control of the 3PH and allow it to full drop and float.
I don't know of the ramifications of doing this, whether it's bad or not as there are many misadjusted 3PH's out there on BX's where the lever stays whenever the operator leaves it (doesn't center) and I don't recall reading of any 3PH failures because of this, so the juries out on whether this is bad or good.
So to give the simple answer, No, the BX 3PH isn't supposed to float, but it can :D

Dave
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
Had to break out the manual and re-read it. Still Lost:

"The control has two stage dump positions. The first "Regenerative" dump position activated by moving the lever to the right features high speed for efficient normal loader operations"

I'm OK with this part, makes sense.

"The second "Regular" dump position activated by moving the lever further to the right features increased power. This second position should be used when operating implements other than the loader with this control valve. These two positions are seperated by a "Feel" position for your convenience.

Huh?
 
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#8 ·
Well Todd and UT, I have found that the detent on mine will actually dump slower than the furthest position to the right before the detent. It is also a more controlled (constant drop speed) dump and does work well for spreading material more evenly.

My manual reads exactly the same as yours Todd but my experience with the loader belies the book. :confused: If not to be used with the loader then what with? It isn't for the broom and you really wouldn't need it for the snow blower hydraulic chute rotater. Maybe you could use it for the front blade. To the best of my knowledge there aren't any other front implements for the BX.
 
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#9 ·
I remembered I had copied this from a long time ago. It was posted by a Kubota tech w/a moniker of kubmech.
Perhaps his explaination of the regen feature will shead some light. I should have posted it originally :D (note, when he posted this the BX's were just changeing over from the 3 position to the 4 position FEL control valves. All new BX's have the 4 pos.)

The 3 position valve and the 4 position valve, both have what is known as a regenerative circuit built into the bucket dump circuit.

First let me explain what "regen" is and why.

When dumping a loaded bucket (with a good old fashioned loader control valve) the weight of the material in the bucket tends to pull the cylinders down faster than the hyd. fluid can fill the other side of the bucket cylinders. Therefore, an air pocket will develop in the cylinder causing the bucket to be a little "floppy" unless held against relief for a few seconds at the end of the dump cycle. Which creates an extra step if you want to back-drag, etc.

To solve this problem we now add a regenerative (regen) circuit into the dump function of the loader control valve.

What is "regen"? The dump function of the loader control valve applies hyd. "power" to both sides of the bucket cylinders at the same time. But Kubmech, how the heck is that going to work? Wont the cylinder just lock up and not move? No, because on one side of the cylinder the rod itself takes up space, decreasing the volume of the cylinder, on the other side of the cylinder piston there is, no rod, creating more volume. PSI=pounds per square inch, the more volume the more square inches to apply pounds, get it? O.K. so the back side of the cylinder overcomes the front side of the cyl. due to more volume and at the same time does not allow an air pocket to develop becuase of the added resistence of "hyd. power" to the front side of the cyl. allowing the cylinder to "stay tight" for subsequent operations. And as an added bonus it tends to dump faster due to the higher amount of flow/pressure to perform this operation. (Hence the "fast dump" mode the salesmen love to tell you about) In actuality the "fast dump"
mode is just derivative of the regen circuit.

Soooo..... What's the difference between 3-pos. and 4-pos. valves, besides about 35 bucks.

The 3-pos. valve has regen in the dump mode period. The problem with regen is if you want to add, say a snow plow, with power angle running off of the loader control valve, the power angle works off of single acting cylinders. With "hyd. power" being supplied to both sides of the cylinder, you will only be able to angle in one direction and that's it. (back to the whole volume-vs-psi thing again).

The 4-pos. valve has a detented position. When moving the control lever to the right, to dump (or power angle right in the case of the plow) if you choose the first detented position this is the non-regen position and will work just like the good old fashion loader control valve. If you apply a little more pressure on the control lever you will push past the detented position and move into the regen position. Thus, if you have the 4-pos. valve and want to avoid the floppy bucket syndrome you have to push full right to engage regen.

So the bottom line is; both the newer 3-pos. and 4-pos valves have the "fast dump" option. The difference is, do you want to add options to your front loader without having to add an aux valve to you're tractor or not?
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
The first "Regenerative" dump position activated by moving the lever to the right features high speed for efficient normal loader operations"
Click to expand...
if you choose the first detented position this is the non-regen position and will work just like the good old fashion loader control valve. If you apply a little more pressure on the control lever you will push past the detented position and move into the regen position.
Click to expand...
Soooooo, which is right? I guess it won't hurt anything either way, which is why I asked in the first place. I sometimes go past the detent unintentionally. Maybe I'll notice more of a difference moving something heavier than snow (which won't happen for a few months).
 
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#12 ·
Volfandt,
Question, Seems to me that if air can get in the system, fluid can get out and the system wouldn,t work at all? I think the purpose of the regen is the fast dump and is not just a side affect. When your trying to move lots of stuff who, wants to wait for a slow dump.

I researched the regen some also, it works as you said, but another way to look at it is it's a bypass valve that let's fluid flow from curl up (rod side as you say) side of the piston to the curl down side (non rod side) the piston without going through the pump, that adds to the flow from the pump so the dump is faster.

My 1860, the regen position is the first right position, the non-regen position is full right past the detent, which is slower ,,but a lot more force because only one side of the cylinder is pressurized. This design makes sense to me since most of the time you want to dump fast.

The full up past detent position is not a regen mode, it's similar in that there is a bypass valve that lets fluid flow between the up and down side of the cylinders, but in that position the system is not pressurized from the pump, therefore the arms can move up or down with no pressure bias from differential piston surface area caused by the rod.
 
#13 ·
This is a great discussion. I can say that I've seen this debated since atleast 2001 :D
I know I've found some info printed in the manual to be somewhat less-than-clear but all in all I think the manual still should be used as a guide for operating and maintaining the tractor. That said, there could be cases where the manual may not have kept pace w/ assembly line upgrades. I need to check mine to see if it matches Todds112.
I know this topic 1st surfaced back in the day because folks were having to push past the 1st detent to the 2nd inorder to swing their front blade to the right and that it was a hard swing w/no feathering. Same thing w/those who were trying to use the hydraulic control to turn their blowers shoot.
Now it seems that Kubota has corrected it since some folks have now reported that they can swing the blade to the right and feather the speed all within the 1st detent.
Could be that we all "may" be right, depending upon the yr of the valve and/or tractor :D
We need more data :D

Dave
 
#14 ·
Guys,

Let me add my thanks for the great discussion/information. I have to admit, I'm just barely following it because my understanding of hydraulics is limited.

Mfarmelo's description in his post above is very similar to how the bucket regen feature has been described on JD tractors (see my link above, post#4). I can't imagine there is a lot of difference in hydraulic plumbing between brands -- or do the various builders come up with proprietary designs?

Based on Volfandt's info, it sure does sound like the Kubota system has evolved over the years. So it wouldn't surprise me if folks have had different experiences.
 
#15 ·
Great discussion and I can't add much other than to confirm that I can feather the swing of my hydraulically angled front blade right or left with the newer 4 position valve (both on my old BX1860 and new BX25). I had also thought the first position to the right is regen and past the detent in non-regen.

Also, back on the float characteristics of the 3PH, you can use the fact that the arms float up (independently too) to help hook up implements, assuming you don't use a quick hitch set up. When I first got my BX, I tried to lower the 3PH arms to the same exact height as the implement pins, which you can imagine is difficult. Now I simply lower the arms all the way and back up to the implement. After dismounting the tractor I can manually lift each lower arm up and slide it onto the pin, as long as the turnbuckles are adjusted to give me enough spread. This has helped speed up implement hook up a bit. I'm sure a quick hitch would be faster, but it's never made it high enough up my priority list to buy one.
 
#16 ·
Got some manual reading time in and to my surprise theres no mention of the regen/non regen feature of the FEL control in my 2004 BX23 owners manual.
There is one mention in the Specification of the loader table where it indicates my 2004 BX23 has a 4 position bucket control type valve w/ one detent float position and a two stage bucket dump, power beyond circuit.

So I went out to it and ran it through some paces and got the exact operation as mfarmelo and others have indicated. I get the regen - fast dump in the 1st position and slower no-regen bucket dump when the lever is pushed past the detent into the 2nd position.
When I'm working the FEL it's almost lke 2nd nature and I really don't think much when using it but now that I am in cipher'n mode, :D I can say that the only time I've gone into the 2nd position (past the detent) is by accident and not by design. So in my experience, I don't even need that 2nd function.....

I don't use any other front mounted implements so I have no idea how it would react if I were to use that 2nd stage power beyond circuit to power a chute rotator or hydro angle blade. Something tells me I'd have the same operation that was reported in the older 4 way valves as opposed to how the newer 4 way valves operate on the 50 & 60 series.
Perhaps someone w/a 00 or 30 series can enlighten us :D

It does appear that the valve's operation has been modified, even tho it still retains the regen feature in the 1st position. Interesting.....

Dave
 
#17 ·
Interesting thread we've got going here. But ..

The FEL "float" position, as indicated by a detent, still escapes me.

My manual says the following on float:
"Move the lever to the FLOAT position, and it will be held there by the detent mechanism. To use the valve as a floating valve with detents, connect the hydraulic hoses to ports [A] and ."​


[A] & are the white and yellow caps, respectively. This suggests that I should leave the [C] and [D] (blue & red) ports disconnected. Does that sound right?? (Doesn't to me.)

As it is, I've been operating the FEL with all four lines connected, and I sense no "detent" when I push the lever all the way forward to the so-called float position. All that does is lift the front wheels!

Sorry I'm so hydraulically challenged, but what am I missing?

All suggestions appreciated!!
 
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#18 ·
John, when you push the joystick forward (to lower the FEL) and it hits a stop, see if you can push it past this 1st stop. That 1st stop is the detent we're talking about and your joystick should push past it into the float position.

These manuals can be confusing at times. I would blame it on the translators but I read tech manuals all the time that are written on N American made products that shouldn't need any translations and they can be wildly confusing. :D
In any case you're FEL should go into the float position with all the connectors properly connected.
I like to use the float on mine when I'm wanting to dig into the bottom of a pile and also when putting the finishing touches when smoothing out a fill etc.

Course I better throw a disclaimer out saying that I've no experience on one of those fine new B2320's :D

Dave
 
#19 ·
In addtion to the FEL, if you get a snow blower you would use the float almost all the time. :)
 
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#20 ·
Thanks, Dave & Al. Will test as soon as I get the chance. Maybe I've just been trying to be too delicate with it; when it reaches a stop (pushing forward), I stop too. Sounds like I just need to try pushing one extra time to get past that first stop.

Will sure post back with the results. And thanks!

PS .. Good to know about using the float function for a snow blower. For some strange reason, there sure seem to be a lot of folks using them this time of year. I remember getting cold once .. forgot what it was like. :D
 
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