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Discussion Starter #1
I went with my neighbor yesterday to look at an X585 that he did purchase even after finding this issue. The tractor has 700 hours on it and appeared to be well taken care of, all original paint other than a few touched up areas. When testing the bucket out, it seemed to work as it should (comparing it to mine), but it struggled to lift the front tires off the ground, maybe be an inch at most even at full throttle. Checked the fluid level, and it was full. I drove the tractor around his property with some steep inclines, and the tractor never missed a beat, just like driving my X728. When I asked the owner when was the last time he changed the fluid and filter, he hesitated somewhat and said "maybe four years ago ... probably about 200 hours ago", which makes me think it's probably more like 6-7 years and 400 hours ago. He definitely didn't know when he did. Also, when lifting the bucket to full height, (which it does with no problem), there is a very loud high pitch squeal coming from the right side ram and the tranny area when at full height, quiet on the way up. So the question is, could the issue be a somewhat plugged filter and/or bad hydraulic fluid, or more likely something wrong with the hydraulic pump? Any and all thoughts appreciated. Thanks, Rick
 

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Kish JD 318/420/430
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1st thing to do is a hydro fluid and filter change. Then redo all those test. It is the most simplest of things to try and it may fix the issue.
 

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Actually the first thing to do is to curl the bucket to the dump position and then try it again. Many FEL's with the bucket in the flat on the ground position do not have any range left to lift the tractor. Usually an inch or two at most. But with the cutting edge of the bucket pointed straight down it will lift the front off about 6 to 10 inches.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
1st thing to do is a hydro fluid and filter change. Then redo all those test. It is the most simplest of things to try and it may fix the issue.
Yes, he is going to do that, probably did it today. Didn't get home until 4:00 A.M. Thanks Russ.


Actually the first thing to do is to curl the bucket to the dump position and then try it again. Many FEL's with the bucket in the flat on the ground position do not have any range left to lift the tractor. Usually an inch or two at most. But with the cutting edge of the bucket pointed straight down it will lift the front off about 6 to 10 inches.
Rudy, we tried that too, but still, at best, maybe an inch. And it struggles to get that high, very slow.

One thing I forgot to mention, as we repeat the up/down procedure, it will get the tires off the ground faster, but no higher.
 

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Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.
 

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Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.
This, along with the fluid change.

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Possible relief valve issue. Debris from a dirty hydraulic system could have gotten caught, possibly holding the valve slightly open. Did you try any tests in the other direction? Lift anything?
 

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Possibly leaking seals internal to one of the lift arm cylinders. When they start leaking they can leak worse in one direction than the other and as time goes on they eventually leak bad in both directions.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Any idea what the loader was used for? Maybe it hasn't been shimmed and the relief valve installed? Along with a fluid change, test the pressure.
According to the PO,just for hauling mulch. The bucket itself, was in excellent condition, not beat up. We will be pulling the fender pan to shim and will double check this relief valve and do a pressure check.

Possible relief valve issue. Debris from a dirty hydraulic system could have gotten caught, possibly holding the valve slightly open. Did you try any tests in the other direction? Lift anything?
No, didn’t think until after we left to have the PO try and lift us (not too far off the ground :tango_face_smile:).

Possibly leaking seals internal to one of the lift arm cylinders. When they start leaking they can leak worse in one direction than the other and as time goes on they eventually leak bad in both directions.
Is there any way to check/know this is what’s happening? Maybe that’s why the right side cylinder has a high pitched squeal when it’s maxed out in the up position.


Another thing I forgot to mention, is the tractor is a 2002, but unsure of the loader age.

Thanks guys for your insight and suggestions.
 

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This, along with the fluid change.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Test the pressure with an appropriate gauge first.

there is a very loud high pitch squeal coming from the right side ram and the tranny area when at full height,
Relief valves squeal when they are dumping fluid at pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just an update of what we found today. Changed the hydraulic fluid and filter, but the bucket still operates the same ... won't lift the tires of the ground using the lift control, but ... , using the tilt it will lift with no problem, even at idle. The issue now seems to be with the lift cylinder/cylinders??? I put my pressure gauge on the gray connection (upper right, one of the lift connections) and we had 800 plus PSI (a little on the low side?). Should I have done all four? We also have a leak on that particular quick connect fitting which we think is the male side of the connection (my gauge did not leak), or the o'ring on the female side. Still getting the squeal from the right side tilt cylinder. We have not tried to lift anything at this point, need to fix the leak first.
 

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Check all four for sure. Problem could be a restriction in the line as well. Also could be a QC fitting that isn't working correctly. Lots of possibilities.
 

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Three things to investigate.

1. Leverage of the cylinders acting against the ground. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

2. Geometry - The angle that the cylinders apply force. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

3. Hydraulics - Force = pressure X Area. (The bucket cylinders are pushing with the maximum piston area exposed to pressure, the arm cylinders are pulling with the lesser piston area exposed to pressure. Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

Added to this is the sizes of the cylinders involved. The older aftermarket loaders had 2" bore cylinders. The newer loaders have 1.5" bore cylinders that have only a bit better than half the force at a given pressure for pushing, and slightly less than that for pulling.

Bottom line, the bucket curl cylinders can apply more pressure to the ground than the lifting arm cylinders before the relief pops.
 

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At 800 psi there is no chance that machine would ever lift the front end. If the relief valve is not install, install and shim to at least 1,250.

Is the squeal from simple lack of use and grease?
 

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My 595 was able to lift the front end at 900 psi stock. Pretty sure it's heavier than a 585. Anyway, the 45 loader uses 1.75" bore cylinders and a 1.13" rod diameter. By my back of the napkin calculation that's about 1.40 in² on the retracting piston surface, so at 800 psi that's over 1,100 pounds of force on each cylinder. Should be able to lift it even though it's around a 2:1 reduction at the bucket.

And there's no need to install a relief valve?! They come that way from the factory. You must be thinking about the THRV - but that has nothing at all to do with implement relief, only the hydro (transaxle) relief.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Check all four for sure. Problem could be a restriction in the line as well. Also could be a QC fitting that isn't working correctly. Lots of possibilities.
I will do this tomorrow. I assume they should all be fairly close in PSI.

Three things to investigate.

1. Leverage of the cylinders acting against the ground. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

2. Geometry - The angle that the cylinders apply force. (Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

3. Hydraulics - Force = pressure X Area. (The bucket cylinders are pushing with the maximum piston area exposed to pressure, the arm cylinders are pulling with the lesser piston area exposed to pressure. Bucket cylinders have the advantage.)

Added to this is the sizes of the cylinders involved. The older aftermarket loaders had 2" bore cylinders. The newer loaders have 1.5" bore cylinders that have only a bit better than half the force at a given pressure for pushing, and slightly less than that for pulling.

Bottom line, the bucket curl cylinders can apply more pressure to the ground than the lifting arm cylinders before the relief pops.
So it sounds like you and mrbeef are talking pretty much about the same thing, a good possibility the relief valve is not installed? Especially since the tractor and bucket operate just fine in other respects. Time to pull the fender pan. This is a 45 loader, but not sure of the age. Thanks Bob.

At 800 psi there is no chance that machine would ever lift the front end. If the relief valve is not install, install and shim to at least 1,250.

Is the squeal from simple lack of use and grease?
I don't think the squeal is from lack of grease, sounds like it's coming from the inside of the cylinder, but will definitely check it out.

One more thing we noticed today. The right side touches the ground (inside the garage on a level floor) a good 1/2" or more before the left side, almost as if the cylinders are not in sync with each other, ... , if that's possible.


Thanks again guys.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
And there's no need to install a relief valve?! They come that way from the factory. You must be thinking about the THRV - but that has nothing at all to do with implement relief, only the hydro (transaxle) relief.
I think mrbeef is talking about the relief valve that needs to be replaced when adding a loader???
 

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And there's no need to install a relief valve?! They come that way from the factory. You must be thinking about the THRV - but that has nothing at all to do with implement relief, only the hydro (transaxle) relief.
I think mrbeef is talking about the relief valve that needs to be replaced when adding a loader???
As I noted, that's the THRV. It does not affect the hydraulic pressure to the implements. It just keeps the axle from grenading when you jam the loader into an immovable object while moving forward.

The droop on one side suggests the possibility of a completely destroyed piston seal, I'd say.
 

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My 595 was able to lift the front end at 900 psi stock. Pretty sure it's heavier than a 585. Anyway, the 45 loader uses 1.75" bore cylinders and a 1.13" rod diameter. By my back of the napkin calculation that's about 1.40 in² on the retracting piston surface, so at 800 psi that's over 1,100 pounds of force on each cylinder. Should be able to lift it even though it's around a 2:1 reduction at the bucket.

And there's no need to install a relief valve?! They come that way from the factory. You must be thinking about the THRV - but that has nothing at all to do with implement relief, only the hydro (transaxle) relief.
Forgive my jargon, I tend to over simplify things. Yes, I am referring to the THRV. Which should be installed prior to loader use. At 800 psi I'm suprised the loader can move a wet noodle.... There is some function there but based on my tests these 45 loaders don't hit their stride until you have shimmed the transaxle to ~1,250 psi. It seems like around 1250 you can start to do work with one... I have mine at 1,450 just below the max 1,500 and have been very pleased with its performance. I'm guessing of the 400 hrs I've put on my X... I've used the loader for 200+ of those.

The droop is concerning... The nice thing is, these cylinders are easy to rebuild if it turns out to be a seal. Take it to a hydraulic shop and I'm guessing you will be out the door for $150 or less... And most of that would be labor.
 

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One more thing we noticed today. The right side touches the ground (inside the garage on a level floor) a good 1/2" or more before the left side, almost as if the cylinders are not in sync with each other, ... , if that's possible.


Thanks again guys.
Not saying it isn't related to hydraulics (which is what the ultimate issue could well be), but the subframe may be a little cocked. I know, it's rigidly bolted to the frame, but if you just loosen the mounting bolts, it will move a little. The through holes are a bit larger than the bolts going through. It took me a couple attempts to get the few loaders I've installed level to my satisfaction. Both were done with adjustments to the mounts. I don't recall one being off no 1/2" though.

Could also be rear tire circumference difference. One could have more air pressure, tires from different lots (or different sizes/brands), one may have a tube or something of the like, etc. front tire pressure or the other listed issues won't make a difference, but rear tire issues might.

Worst case scenario, but not as likely as the other possibilities, is tweaked loader arms/frame.
 
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