My Tractor Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I put up a similar post on the "perr" forum; but other than that I guess the local machine shop near me seems decent on cost vs what some of the other members pay for a "bore job" in the machine shop on a single cyl air cooled engine; I was asking whether it's still worth doing a PROPER rebuild on one vs throwing it away and repowering with either a new engine or a good/used engine from a machine with say, a dead trans, etc;
(which of course seems to be eluding me since I currently need one)

Engine in question; 12.5HP B&S 289707 (I don't have "type number" in front of me) but I have 2 identical engines except a 3 yr difference in the "code"; same model/type; both from Murray riders (MY intended app is different from original) it's an L head (not OHV) I/C version w/a cast iron sleeve

I put one on the shelf since I was able to test run it and verify that it does run, starts easy but smokes especially on acceleration; and it's blue not black so I'm pretty sure it's oil;
but the other one had a busted gov shaft and was even dirtier especially the trail of oil from the exhaust; being that I know I have to open'er up to fix the governor anyway I figure it's the best candidate to be rebuilt "1st" vs the "runner";
anyways by the time I take it into the machine shop and have it mic'd out, bored out (if need be) valve seats tended to as needed (they seem intact so far) and buy the needed parts is it worth it any more these days, to actually "go thru" one of these engines?
I AM NOT interested in Honduh's; whether the "real thing" or clones;

but once I got the head off there was no ridge (though I have no "inside mic's) and no scratches but there was a quarter sized "stain" on the cyl surface; I cant catch a nail on it but I see it;possible "hotspot" from fins being grass plugged? as the engine sits it would be on the bottom of the cyl; and it is quite glazed; if I wind up having to go "full boogie" and bore it, cut the crank (it is smooth as a babys behind but there are 2 streaks about 1/3 way around and about equally spaced outward from center of the crank pin, I'm wondering if it "got hot" because they do have a blue tinge; I'm more thinking it may need machined undersized from being out of round due to the "marks"; like the cyl they are nothing I can feel, more so just "see")

Other than rings (and piston too if overbore winds up being needed) and gaskets, that gov shaft, it will need the gov gear ***'y (the hole that fits over the cam is "oblonged" I don't ever remember seeing that before) the carb bowl needs replaced (it sat w/water in it I guess; bowl has pinholes yet carb itself looks very clean) and the ex valve had a "wall" alongside it of carbon as tall as the valve chamber in the head to the bottom side of the valve; this thing obviously had an apetite for oil when last used; I'm wondering how the guides are.

I don't believe in "half assing" such a rebuild; I don't like re do's; so it'll be "everything, as needed" or scrapped; no in between. if this one winds up as scrap I'll likely pull the runner apart and rebuild that one instead; I'd ultimately like to build em both;

I have a use for one right now as we speak; and have been starting to see more such machines as we get into the latter half of this years mowing season; commercial walk behind mowers that either have no engine or dead engines; I have a 48" Ransomes Bobcat here as we speak, bought "engine less" that will probably wind up fixed and sold (or traded for a similar 32-36 incher that will more readily fit thru a standard gate which I know this 48 won't) I dont have to be in a hurry to get it going, as I have plenty of machines to get me thru this season; at this time I'm looking at having this mower ready to go to start next year when these type mowers draw better interest from potential buyers; this machine originally had a FB460V Kawi but I got it totally engineless. so I'm trying to repower with what I have available; to go buy a dead tractor (trans deck etc type problem) how long that engine would last is a total crap shoot; if I don't get back working I may put this machine to work if I can get more yards to mow next spring rather than selling it. so I want best "bang for the buck";

as far as parts, I have always been partial to OE parts for small engines but would not be against trying out Stens, Oregon etc but not those cheap offshore "kits"; I bought one for a Kohler I did last year (K181) and sent it back; even w/just "visual" inspection against OE parts they looked like crap;
typically I have found OE B&S to cost less to buy than OE Kohler though.

So is it worth rebuilding these engines any more?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2 Posts
I find it cheaper just to buy a hole running motor ...But re-building also means you know it was done right and hasnt had the crap bored out of it ..Its a hard call
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,182 Posts
I would take to a machine shop and have it looked over first, then give it a good hone, new piston, rings, and rod, and throw it back together. That way, assuming you put it back together yourself, you'll only have a couple hundred in it and an engine that will last a long time. You really only need to bore it oversize if there is substantial damage on the cylinder wall.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
it needs bored 0.020; the bore is "barrel" worn; 0.009 Over Std in the middle of ring travel; I found a couple places with aft. pistons/rinngsets for a decent price; I'm waiting to hear on teh crank; I shoulda miked it myself as I do have plenty of "outside" mics; if can be left "standard" I'll probably bore it the 0.020 and go for the rebuild; but if the crank is outta round etc and needs the under-size machining I will probably save the starter, carb and stator and send the rest away. this is an I/C; but still no bushings/bearin gs where the crank rides within the block. it does appear to have bearings in where the balance counterweight rides on the crank (I didn't pull the counter balance) but I can see with that oscillating in there the power loss associated with that must be significant.

What's the difference; between a model 286707, 287707 and a 289707 (which this engine is) and what would it hurt to leave that hunk o'cast iron (the counterbalance) out upon reassembly? and what makes this engine an "I/C"?? I woulda expected replaceable bushings not unlike a cam bearing in a car engine or even a ball bearing---at least on the PTO end if not both to be considered "industrial/commercial".

also; I have never seen these engines with anything BUT a Walbro carb; boy them **** kits aren't cheap; I was gonna go thru it but I may take chances that it will be OK as is; I know I do need a new bowl for it.

also; the gov shaft is busted flush w/ the block; (I found one cheap online where I will probably be getting the parts) and the oil slinger? the hole where it slides over the cam is ovalled-out/wallowed so I'll need that new, too.
Though I first "discovered" this engine bolted to a Murray rider it has definitely had the bottom cover off; 1 bolt was loose and 1 was a different type of bolt.

I am leaning towards a rebuild for 1 reason, if nothing else; I have a 17 yo son that I want to see what's involved as I build it back up; I do have a 2nd of these engines as well; and dependent on how costly this one winds up I may go thru that one, as well

though the cyl wasn't scored; as weren't the crank or block bearing surfaces either, I didn't drain the oil before pulling the lower cover; and I really didn't need to; I got about 1/2 a coffee cup full of oil from it was all. Evan if I stay OEM B&S, it'll still wind up cheaper than the M8 Kohler that I last redid.
IDK about one of those offshore-sourced cheapie kits, but I am looking into Prime line (avail at Car Quest and Napa) or Stens or Oregon branded parts, as opposed to OE B&S. the machinist said to see whats avail as far as O/S' because he has 2 B&S' there for another customer that claim to have 0.010, 0.020, and 0.030 O/S avail for but they can't seem to find anything but "Std" readily avail and his engines need a borejob as well.
also there are 2 guys (both been there "forever") in this machine shop; one does the block work the other does head/valve work; I'm waiting on a call to verify that the valve seats are good as are the guides, before I get too deep in a parts search. it needs a better degrease than I gave it, first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rebuild-BRIGGS-STRATTON-ENGINE-11-12-12-5-13hp-/120603607851?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

The whole rebuild kit for one of these little engines are pretty cheap. I guess it really depends on what the Machinist is going to charge you.

I've got the same motor (a 12 horse) and I think the reason these are called and I/C are because it has a Cast Iron sleeve inside the bore. If it were me, if the crank and jug are in good shape, I'd just go with a rebuild.

I've also got a Kohler K241 and the rebuild kits for these are only around 140 for everything. The smaller engines are pretty cheap to overhaul.

I would rather do a rebuild rather than buying a used engine just for the fact that you know what you've got, and when buying something used your taking the chance of getting something that might be needing a rebuild also, so you're in the same boat your were in the first place, with another couple hundred shelled out for another engine.

JMO

Matt
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
yeah but i'm afraid of thoise "cheap" rebuild kits; I bought one once and returned it;
though parts are higher if this were a cast iron Koh;er I would not be asking the "Worth" of a rebuild;
I stopped by the machine shop earlier and the only other think they knew sp far beyond the need for +0.020" on the cylinder the ex valve guide came out with the valve.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2 Posts
yeah but i'm afraid of thoise "cheap" rebuild kits; I bought one once and returned it;
though parts are higher if this were a cast iron Koh;er I would not be asking the "Worth" of a rebuild;
I stopped by the machine shop earlier and the only other think they knew sp far beyond the need for +0.020" on the cylinder the ex valve guide came out with the valve.


I used a cheap kit myself and it didnt last very long it chucked a rod a year and a half later ..had it done by the machine shop
 

·
Senior Tinkerer
Joined
·
1,591 Posts
Don B., assuming the engine is rebuildable, if you have a 17 y.o. son that is willing to let you teach him, then that weighs the decision towards doing the rebuild even if it is not entirely economically justified.
Anyway, that's my .02 cents. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
596 Posts
+1 with G-1! Have you dealt with the younger generation enough to realize how little concept they have collectively of how things work & that is conceivable to actually REPAIR a broken item rather than just chucking it? With all the manufacturing heading offshore at an accelerating rate & the predictable lowering of this nation's standard of living, someone had better figure out how to conserve capital, or the whole show is going down the drain! I say. "Good on ya"!!!
 

·
4K Poster!!!
Joined
·
4,504 Posts
Don B., assuming the engine is rebuildable, if you have a 17 y.o. son that is willing to let you teach him, then that weighs the decision towards doing the rebuild even if it is not entirely economically justified.
Anyway, that's my .02 cents. :D
I heartily second that thought!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
I've never used one of these rebuild kits, heck I didn't even know they make other ones than these. Not to Pirate the thread, but could you guys steer me towards the good rebuild kits?

Matt
 

·
All Fired Up
Joined
·
454 Posts
Try going to a vo tech school and have them do the machine work. I saved more then half on a auto bore job. I would not trust them with the valve work.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Don B., assuming the engine is rebuildable, if you have a 17 y.o. son that is willing to let you teach him, then that weighs the decision towards doing the rebuild even if it is not entirely economically justified.
Anyway, that's my .02 cents. :D
Believe me it HAS played into the decision;

but I'm "in for the ride", even though I now know for sure and certain, that I will exceed the amount I wanted to spend/ even considering teaching the kid; (I had "raised my threshhold" as to how much to spend already, because of that) he had "small engines" as a Freshman but they never got into tearing one down. he's leaning towards either being a welder or a machinist it appears. so he can see where "machine shop" may take him; he's a Senior and doesnt yet know which way he is headed after HS is done.

I had an idea as to how far I wanted to go on this engine and if certain things had to be done to it, I wasn't gonna sink the money in; because I have a 2nd identical engine here, that I can tear down to see if it would be a "better" rebuild candidate; one that I know for a fact, is a running engine.

I went into the machine shop yesterday, asking for an "evaluation" of the block and crank, with an estimate of work to be done---so I could determine whether to build that one, or take a chance on the other one needing less machine work to whip it onto shape.
I stopped by today and asked what was found; and was told that they were just starting to check it out and would call me later that day; I got home from my running around, mowed my yards, and had a message to call them;
in the past, they have always waited to do any more than degrease and measure, before getting my "OK";
I knew yesterday, that it would need an 0.020 over bore at a minimum; but as of then, knew nothing about the condition of valve seats or guides; or whether the crank would need to be turned undersized or not; and as of this morning, I asked them to mike out the rest of it and tell me the condition of the rest of the engine; in the past, when they have done work for me, I've always had them do what was needed (I don't like shortcuts; a rebuild is too much work, and expense, to cut corners) BUT sometimes I have had to split up the work and had them do it in "chunks" as I had the money. this time I had a set amount of work, that I wanted to put into it and no more; (remember I have another of these same engines)

My thoughts were, that if all was OK other than the needed overbore, that I would go for it; but guide work, seat work, or crank machining, and I'd pull the other engine apart to see what it was like before deciding whether to fix "this" one.
But when they called, I was headed back to town anyways, so I stopped by instead of returning the call;
they had already bored the block, BEFORE they told me that the exhaust guide came out along with the valve, and that they'd have to find a new guide that was "close" and cut it down; (they did; IDK the application they found but I guess that it's OK other than the length; they'd have to cut it to length) it's 0.0015" larger outside diameter than the hole it fits into within the block with an interference press fit. AND the crank DOES need to be machined undersized (briggs only offers "STD" or 0.020" undersized)
so now I'll need a piston, rings AND a new rod. crap.
but they tried to clean up the bore with just an 0.010 overbore and "couldn't quite" so they had to go the full 0.020.

I have seen tractors with this same type engine with trans trouble, carb trouble, dead battery etc from $100-400; (but unknown hours or maint history) and used engines like it, from $100-175; PLUS either shipping, or gas to make a 2 hr roundtrip to go get; (some were 2-3 states away and shipping ranges from $35-$100 on EPay)
so I figured that if I could rebuild it for ~$200 or so I'd still be OK; and I'd know exactly what I had;(though I really didn't want to spend that much on an engine for that particular machine; the "teach my son" aspect expanded what I was willing to spend);
but a crank cut and borejob I'm at $110 plus what ever the valve guilde work and grinding of/setting clearance on the valves costs I'll be at ~$150 before I buy any parts;
add in; piston/rings, rod, carb bowl (I should go thru the whole carb; they want $55 for the "kit" for this particular Walbro so I guess I'll take my chances that it'll be OK) governor shaft, gasket set, air filter, oil slinger (hole for cam worn oblong) and I'm in over my head. I'm looking at having about $275-300 in this engine once all is said and done; $75-100 more than I wanted to even considering the teach the kid idea.
add that to the $135 (cheapest I found; most places are at least 50% more) for a variable speed clutch pulley and a deck drive pulley at $30 more (I bought the mower totally engineless; those parts went with the old Kawi)
and a battery for the elec start (old Kawi was pull start) plus building a battery box so the starter can do its job (at least I saved the harness from the donor Murray that this engine came from, with the ign switch and the solenoid etc)
as far as the possibility of doing a "flip" next spring, I might break even on it. so hopefully I gain a few more yards to mow next season, so I can recoup some of my investment by using it. I don't think I'll "lose" on it, but I don't think I'll make anything on it, either; certainly not what I would have hoped to. though these machines do have quite a wide range of asking prices on places like CL and EPay. so we'll have to see. we're on the downhill side of this mowing season, so I don't see the chances of selling and making much on it the rest of "this" season, anyways. so I get to look at it, trip on it for the winter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,313 Posts
I will ask the obvious question: Why did the machine shop do any work without authorization? They did not have knowledge of your plans for use of the engine, the existence of another engine on the shelf, nor of your plan to use it as a learning experience. While I would appreciate their quick service time, I don't think that you should be forced to accept their choice to do the work as a given. Maybe they could be persuaded to offer a bit of a discount as an alternative to remaining unpaid for 'gratuitous' work performed without authorization.
I guess I am saying that you should not feel constrained to continue with this particular job just because of an overzealous machinist. Are they busy? Are they hunting for work? Has their demand slacked as much as the rest of the workforce? Maybe they will be flexible... You won't know unless you ask, or push for a bit of consideration.
As to the title of this discussion, I am all for re-using and repairing, both as an economical and conservation modes, along with my general "fixation on fixin'". I like to make things work, and will take apart anything that breaks to see how it works and to see if I can improve the way it works...
tom
 

·
Senior Tinkerer
Joined
·
1,591 Posts
It does not take too much on projects like this to put them in the red as far as any profit goes. And this situation is not getting any better with the price of just about everthing going up.

So, maybe you will not come out ahead as far as you would like, but even that is a teaching opportunity. My experience in working with my son has been that the "problem solving" and "attitude" parts of the jobs were always the most valuable parts of the instruction. The actual hands-on part requires both of those skills, of course, but figuring out what the best plan is and making adjustments to the plan when things don't go right are probably even more valuable things to learn.

BTW, do you use Tulsa Engine Warehouse? http://tewarehouse.com/Catalog/051

I have gotten some good deals there on Kohler, but I don't know about Briggs.

Good luck! :goodl:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
yup Ive dealt w/ TEW a couple times; the 1st time I was able to call them and talk to them as I followed along on the computer; the 2nd time (almost an identical order about $175 worth) I looked oline and they took their ph number away saying that they had to go online only; (or that you E mail them your order and put a CC number on there and tehy call you only if there's a question on theor pert in either app or quantity on hand.
I'm sorry but I REFUSE to enter my CC number online for anybody. I had their number on the invoice from the 1st order and was chastized when I called teh 2nd time to order and kinda "chewed out" for not using the online jazz.
I compared prices of parts they had for this engine (and mower too) and found a place that has everything they do, for the same price, most things are cheaper; especially the pulleys I need to go on teh PTO of this engine to power the mower.
I'm debating as to whether I should still go with this engien or keep searching for a rider with a problem that doesn't pertain to the engine that can donate its engine to this machine I'm repowering. even if I do go thru with the rebuild;
I wish I could afford to pull that other B&S 12.5HP apart and send it to the machien shop, and order the parts at the same time for both; that would put me over the amount req'd to get free shipping.
 

·
Senior Tinkerer
Joined
·
1,591 Posts
If you use Paypal, things are much simpler. It has worked good for me for several years...even eBay's purchase of the company has not messed it up yet!
All in all, I am sure it is safer than having each seller you deal with have your cc number.

I think the answer to the question your thread posed is: Sometimes it is and increasingly often, it is not!! :fing32:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,370 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
screw paypal; and their fees;


I ordered the parts today; the block shold be done; they had the valves ground the bore job, guide work, and (I think) the crank too, as of Friday morning; they called me for the baseplate cam and lifters so they could set the valve clearance; oh I forgot; I was supposed to look nd get the spec on taht and get back to them.

machine work was gonna be $115 for the borejob and the crank turning; what the valve work or the guide they had to order was gonna cost IDK; but we're looking at ~$150 to the machine shop; (too much IMHO for a single cyl engine) but I think that they charge "min; 1 hr" each, for certain jobs like the borejob and the crank; I would think they could do both in an hour. the engine parts will be right at $140; and that was going with the aftermarket piston/rings (Rotary brand) at a savings of 1/2 the cost of OE Briggs; the gaskets were 1/3 less; the rod was only avail as an OE Briggs part;
I also needed a gov shaft and an oil slinger, plus a carb bowl and an air filter; the air filters for my 318 in my trucks are cheaper than the oval B&S filters; I got an aftermarket one coming; still kinda high.
so though it will essentially BE a new engine, once I'm done.
I'll be into it for about $300. for the rebuild; another $166 for the pulleys (I wish they'd have left the blown engine on there just for that) though most places were $200-240 for just the one.

and I'll be into my "$100 mower" for about $600, by the time i build a battery box and add a battery for the elec start + my time and gas. I was hoping to have it running for about $350 total.
I guess thats better than buying a $100-150 used engine just to have it go "boom" after a couple uses.
 

·
10K and Climbin!
Joined
·
12,449 Posts
Any engine shop I've ever dealt with won't do any cylinder boring without the replacement piston to assure proper fit.. Must be they are slow and need work or have a rookie on board.. I'd haggle with them and express my displeasure on thier jumping the gun and forging ahead with your engine. Read them the riot act unless you are related to them!

:goodl:
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top