[G-1]

The topic of which oil to use in small, 4 cycle engines...or any size engine, for that matter...has been kicked around forever. Somehow, these discussions always seem to leave more questions than answers. Here is the strategy I have come to:

1.Use non-synthetic oil in any engine operating in “dirty” conditions. This would include most outdoor power equipment. The idea is that this environment requires more frequent oil changes, so why waste money on synthetics?

2.Use non-synthetic oil in any engine that has already been using non-synthetic for more than two oil changes. Avoid leakage problems.

3.Use 30HD for all engines operating in temps above 32°F. Use 10W30 from 32° to 0° and 5W30 below 0°F. I have not seen any evidence that multi-viscosity oils are as good as straight 30HD so long as the temp is above freezing.

4.Buy a name brand, SL rated oil and change it (and the filter) according to the operating conditions. Normal lawn and garden tractor usage – every 50 hrs., at least once per season, and do not keep old oil in during extended periods of no usage. Car and truck – every 3000 mi. if mostly local or 5000 miles if over the road.

5.Specific brand choices have changed through the years, but lately I have been using Walmart SuperTech oil and oil filters. For air filters, I look for a buy on something better than the orange box Frams.

So, does this sound like a good plan? Any suggestions for better brands?

:thanku:

 

[PurplDodge]

Using any Synthetic, and whatever grade is reccomended for your engine.

 

[Ingersoll444]

The topic of which oil to use in small, 4 cycle engines...or any size engine, for that matter...has been kicked around forever. Somehow, these discussions always seem to leave more questions than answers. Here is the strategy I have come to:

1.Use non-synthetic oil in any engine operating in “dirty” conditions. This would include most outdoor power equipment. The idea is that this environment requires more frequent oil changes, so why waste money on synthetics?

2.Use non-synthetic oil in any engine that has already been using non-synthetic for more than two oil changes. Avoid leakage problems.

3.Use 30HD for all engines operating in temps above 32°F. Use 10W30 from 32° to 0° and 5W30 below 0°F. I have not seen any evidence that multi-viscosity oils are as good as straight 30HD so long as the temp is above freezing.

4.Buy a name brand, SL rated oil and change it (and the filter) according to the operating conditions. Normal lawn and garden tractor usage – every 50 hrs., at least once per season, and do not keep old oil in during extended periods of no usage. Car and truck – every 3000 mi. if mostly local or 5000 miles if over the road.

5.Specific brand choices have changed through the years, but lately I have been using Walmart SuperTech oil and oil filters. For air filters, I look for a buy on something better than the orange box Frams.

So, does this sound like a good plan? Any suggestions for better brands?

:thanku:

1) thats a good point. I do use Synth in the snowblower though.

2)That is not as true as it was back in the day when the synth oils first came out. The oil is diferent now, and the modern seals are better. Granted it needs to be taken on a case, by case baises.

3]Some of the modern L&G engines need the multi Vis oils. You will find they call for it's use in engines that have hydrolic tappets in them. The smaller passeges in the system need the thinner oil. Other then that Im with you. BUT the old style engines [ie the old K Kohlers] will use more oil when using multi vis oil. Eaven in the cold, so keep a eye on it

4) Well I agree except for the ratings... the later oil ratings removed a lot of the anti wear addative packedge. Thats fine in a modern engine that uses roller tappets, but in old tech engines I like the older rated oils. You can find them sold for deisel usedge.

5) IMHO the fact that is being changed, is more important then brand!! I use what I can find, but as was stated I use desel spec oils. Normal the Shell Rotella. Easy to find, and not that pricy.


Good post. Thanks for posting it!!

 

[DJ in WV]

I have to agree with Ingersol's post above.

I do not, however, use synthetic oil at all. It's not that I disagree with it or don't like it, it is the price point. It does have its advantages though.

As far as brand, I like conventional Mobil. I don't dislike the other brands. The Mobil oil looks a lot clearer right out of the bottle making it easier for me to see when it is really dirty.

 

[Caseguytoo]

Selecting the correct oil for the engine you own isn't difficult.

Step 1. Disregard all the ******** freely dispensed on forums such as this one. None of these guys are oil engineers nor do they work in the R&D department for the engine companies. For that matter, I don't fit in those categories either. Just the same, read on.

Step 2. Use Google to find the website of the company that made your engine and then go to the FAQ's section or locate the operator's manual that pertains to the model of engine you have to find out the correct grade and oil type. The manufacturer wants you to get the greatest amount of life from their engines. They have spent millions during extensive research and worked closely with the oil industry prior to coming up with the recommended oils. They didn't reach into a hat and randomly pulled out a piece of paper that said SAE 30W on it. Whatever oil they recommend for your SPECIFIC engine has solid proof that it's the best choice behind it. So, who are you going to believe? Will it be some unqualified but well-meaning anonymous person on this forum or the results from many years of testing engine longevity under controlled conditions in a laboratory?

Step 3. If your tractor does not have an hourmeter on it, then go buy one and install it so you can adhere to the oil change schedule set down by the engine manufacturer. Timely oil changes and filter changes plus keeping the oil level right at the FULL mark on the dipstick are the things that will extend the life of your engine along with valve adjustments, air filter changes, tune-ups and on some engines, decarbonization.

If you follow those three simple steps, you'll have nothing to worry about. There is no need to run synthetic oil in your engine but if throwing away money makes you happy, then by all means, toss it away. For the very few of you who live in places where sub-zero F temp readings are common, then synthetic oil has benefit. But I also have to question your sanity for living in such a climate. :biglaugh:

Running synthetic will not allow you to extend the oil change period in splash lubed engines. I have nothing against synthetic oils. In certain applications, they are the best choice. But when it comes to outdoor power equipment, there's no evidence that they are the best choice.

 

[MowHoward2210]

....................

Step 2. Use Google to find the website of the company that made your engine and then go to the FAQ's section or locate the operator's manual that pertains to the model of engine you have to find out the correct grade and oil type. The manufacturer wants you to get the greatest amount of life from their engines. They have spent millions during extensive research and worked closely with the oil industry prior to coming up with the recommended oils. They didn't reach into a hat and randomly pulled out a piece of paper that said SAE 30W on it. Whatever oil they recommend for your SPECIFIC engine has solid proof that it's the best choice behind it. So, who are you going to believe? Will it be some unqualified but well-meaning anonymous person on this forum or the results from many years of testing engine longevity under controlled conditions in a laboratory?

..........................

Something I always wondered was do manufacturers really want to maximize the life of their engines/parts? I mean you would think they would want to sell you new engines/parts. Do they draw a fine line between a putting out a quality engine and having it wear a little prematurely? Are all these things geared for optimal engine life?

 

[Paul J]

Selecting the correct oil for the engine you own isn't difficult.

Step 1. Disregard all the ******** freely dispensed on forums such as this one. None of these guys are oil engineers nor do they work in the R&D department for the engine companies. For that matter, I don't fit in those categories either. Just the same, read on.

Step 2. Use Google to find the website of the company that made your engine and then go to the FAQ's section or locate the operator's manual that pertains to the model of engine you have to find out the correct grade and oil type. The manufacturer wants you to get the greatest amount of life from their engines. They have spent millions during extensive research and worked closely with the oil industry prior to coming up with the recommended oils. They didn't reach into a hat and randomly pulled out a piece of paper that said SAE 30W on it. Whatever oil they recommend for your SPECIFIC engine has solid proof that it's the best choice behind it. So, who are you going to believe? Will it be some unqualified but well-meaning anonymous person on this forum or the results from many years of testing engine longevity under controlled conditions in a laboratory?

Step 3. If your tractor does not have an hourmeter on it, then go buy one and install it so you can adhere to the oil change schedule set down by the engine manufacturer. Timely oil changes and filter changes plus keeping the oil level right at the FULL mark on the dipstick are the things that will extend the life of your engine along with valve adjustments, air filter changes, tune-ups and on some engines, decarbonization.

If you follow those three simple steps, you'll have nothing to worry about. There is no need to run synthetic oil in your engine but if throwing away money makes you happy, then by all means, toss it away. For the very few of you who live in places where sub-zero F temp readings are common, then synthetic oil has benefit. But I also have to question your sanity for living in such a climate. :biglaugh:

Running synthetic will not allow you to extend the oil change period in splash lubed engines. I have nothing against synthetic oils. In certain applications, they are the best choice. But when it comes to outdoor power equipment, there's no evidence that they are the best choice.

 

[Caseguytoo]

Something I always wondered was do manufacturers really want to maximize the life of their engines/parts? I mean you would think they would want to sell you new engines/parts. Do they draw a fine line between a putting out a quality engine and having it wear a little prematurely? Are all these things geared for optimal engine life?

Manufacturers don't have to skew things in order to sell parts. The public in general are their own worst enemy.

Most guys walk into a store, buy a new piece of OPE, take it home, unpack it , then rush outside to crank it up and use it. At one time, manufacturers shipped product in a dry state, relying on the store or end user to put oil in the crankcase. You can just imagine how well that plan worked.

Manufacturers know that most people never even open the Operator's Manual and read how to care for their new item. They also know that most owners have no idea as to how many hours they put on tools. Some people are cheap, some are ignorant, some are careless, some have more money than brains and some shouldn't be allowed to own tools let alone be with-in twenty-feet of them.

Lots of members on MTF have had OPE given to them or found them at the curb or saved them from being crushed.....only to take them home, spend 15 minutes diagnosing and repairing the problem before putting that item into their fleet and using it for the next ten years.

Nope..... manufacturers have nothing to fear by telling you the best oil to use, not when they have human nature working in their favour.

 

[MowHoward2210]

Good points, Caseguytoo. Thank you.

 

[Bill56]

The engine identification plate, on my old 1958 Briggs, says to
use 20-W above freezing and 10-W below freezing. Is it okay to use
30-W, or is there some reason that the engine would need to have
have the 20-W oil?

 

[Caseguytoo]

Is your old Briggs a pull-start engine? If so, then 20W oil in the crankcase when the temp is between 32F and 42F will make it easier to spin over. But if you are running that engine in weather that doesn't drop below 40 degrees F, then the 30W oil would be a good choice as would changing any oil every 25 hours of operation.

 

[Tractor-Holic]

Ok--next question...what do you guys put in a 40 year old cast iron engine,that runs well,but blows smoke out of the breather,or out the exhaust some due to years of wear??...

Personally,I use 15W-40 or SAE 30W in most all my small engines,the older ones --if they smoke ,I add some Lucas or Motor-Medic...a few old Briggs push mowers I rescued from the dump smoked SO badly,I put 75% Lucas and 25% oil,and though they spun over like the crankcase was full of grease,not oil,they ran great and barely smoked at all..but forget starting them beow 40 degrees!..

I find 15W-40 diesel oil the one thats consumed the slowest on any "oil burner" I have for some reason,even SAE 30 or 40 or 20W-50 doesn't seen to take as long to be "burned up" as the 15W-40 does..must have a higher flash point..
I tried using "Grade 70" Amalie we sold at one parts store that was popular with Harley owners,but I found it was too "stiff" when starting it cold,unless it was 80 degrees out you had a hard time getting a engine started with that in it--once it was running though,it seemed to reduce smoking very well..If they made a thicker straight weight synthetic oil,I bet it would reduce oil burning a great deal..
I've seen some new stuff thats colorless sold as a "stop smoke" oil,its very costly,but I have seen it work on several cars that never would have passed for a sticker due to visible smoking..

 

[G-1]

I was sure you guys could help out on this. I think one of my problems has been just keeping up on the changes...there seem to be too many of them to make the proper adjustments.

Ingersoll444:

Regarding potential leakage if switching to synthetics:

"2)That is not as true as it was back in the day when the synth oils first came out. The oil is different now, and the modern seals are better. Granted it needs to be taken on a case, by case basis."

That is good to know, but it is the case-by-part that gets sticky! For my tractor stuff, I have just ruled out using synthetic, but sometimes I wonder if changing to synthetics in my '02 Buick and '03 Silverado might be a good thing. Not wanting to make problems, I just stick with my old ways.

Regarding the need to use multi-viscosity oils:

"3]Some of the modern L&G engines need the multi Vis oils. You will find they call for it's use in engines that have hydrolic tappets in them. The smaller passeges in the system need the thinner oil. Other then that Im with you. BUT the old style engines [ie the old K Kohlers] will use more oil when using multi vis oil. Eaven in the cold, so keep a eye on it"

I did not know that about the hydraulic tappets. Seems like it calls into question the whole concept of multi-viscosity oils having the characteristics of the high number when hot and the low number when cold. It does ring true, however. One of the things that got me started on this was how thin 10W30 was coming out of my Kohler Magnum 20 (when hot). Seeing that and reading Kohlers recommendation (back in the mid-80's) to use 30HD for above freezing temps, put me on the path to ONLY using 30HD. (They actually stated that use of 30HD would allow 50 hr. oil change intervals instead of 25 if using 10W30!)

Regarding the use of SL rated oil:

"4) Well I agree except for the ratings... the later oil ratings removed a lot of the anti wear addative packedge. Thats fine in a modern engine that uses roller tappets, but in old tech engines I like the older rated oils. You can find them sold for deisel usedge."

I did not know that anti-wear additives had been removed. I have read that oils with the latest rating were backward compatible. Now I guess I don't know what to think. This will require a little study.

Ingersoll444, thank you for your thoughtful comments. :fing32:

 

[KHodges]

I did not know that anti-wear additives had been removed. I have read that oils with the latest rating were backward compatible. Now I guess I don't know what to think. This will require a little study.

:fing32:

I've always understood that the highest rating on the bottle or can meant that the oil could be used safely in any engine rated for the lower ratings under it.

For example, if the oil is rated "SF", then any engine for which "SD" or "SE" were recommended oils could also use "SF", but for an engine recommending "SG" , then the lower rated oils would not be appropriate.

Diesel rated oils usually have additives designed to keep soot and other carbon products of combustion in suspension in the oil, rather than allowing them to precipitate out or deposit on surfaces like piston walls, crowns and valve faces. Since compression is so much greater in diesels than in gasoline engines, oil rated for them also resists foaming better.


The thought of using a heavier weight oil in an engine that has a lot of wear to lessen the smoking might sound right, but is counterintuitive. A "thicker" oil might not get pushed past worn rings as easily, and may quiet a worn, noisy valve train (worn valve guides and lifters) but it also loads a more worn oil pump more, which may even decrease circulating oil pressure, and can't flow into the smaller passages as well as the thinner, recommended oil can. My mechanic said to keep using the recommended weight oils for the proper environmental situations, and put up with increased consumption, or cough up the bucks and rebuild or replace the engine. This recommendation was made regarding my '97 Camry, which recommends 5W-30 oil. The car has 235,000 miles on it and may use 1/2 quart between 3000 mile oil changes.

 

[Ingersoll444]

I did not know that anti-wear additives had been removed. I have read that oils with the latest rating were backward compatible. Now I guess I don't know what to think. This will require a little study.

Ingersoll444, thank you for your thoughtful comments. :fing32:

Not ALL the anywear additives. But a lot. Search for oil and zink additves, and solid lifer cam lobes and you will find a TON of reading!!!

 

[Maplekid]

I use amsoil synthetic because I am a prefered customer and can get it at dealer prices. It goes in prettymuch everything at my house but the 6 wheeler caz it takes like 5 gallons.

 

[G-1]

Selecting the correct oil for the engine you own isn't difficult.

Step 2. Use Google to find the website of the company that made your engine and then go to the FAQ's section or locate the operator's manual that pertains to the model of engine you have to find out the correct grade and oil type. The manufacturer wants you to get the greatest amount of life from their engines. They have spent millions during extensive research and worked closely with the oil industry prior to coming up with the recommended oils. They didn't reach into a hat and randomly pulled out a piece of paper that said SAE 30W on it. Whatever oil they recommend for your SPECIFIC engine has solid proof that it's the best choice behind it. So, who are you going to believe? Will it be some unqualified but well-meaning anonymous person on this forum or the results from many years of testing engine longevity under controlled conditions in a laboratory? .

I think that what the manufacturer says is a good starting point, but wouldn't you agree that much of what they say is geared toward the “big picture” and not necessarily toward “my” picture? They are motivated to give advice that has the best chance of making the least problems for them, but maybe not for me. For example, if they specify 30HD because they know it will give the best service, but people will not change it to 10W30 when the weather changes, then they might just ignore the 30HD and say to only use 10W30. Decisions like that are made “for us” all the time. I think we need to temper our confidence in what they tell us with lots of caution!

Think about this: For years we faithfully read the little tags on our car/truck doors telling us what tire pressure to run. Now we find out (from real tire engineers) that that information has been wrong all along!! We were running with about 10 pounds too little. Now, if I were a conspiracy nut (I'm only a tractor nut!), I might think that Detroit, who didn't have to make better suspensions, the tire companies who were able to sell more tires, and the oil companies who got to sell more fuel, got together and figured out how to fleece the public!! More likely, there were some other factors at work one of which was to specify a pressure that required no thought by an individual driver about what might be best in his circumstance.

Selecting the correct oil for the engine you own isn't difficult.

Step 3. If your tractor does not have an hourmeter on it, then go buy one and install it so you can adhere to the oil change schedule set down by the engine manufacturer. Timely oil changes and filter changes plus keeping the oil level right at the FULL mark on the dipstick are the things that will extend the life of your engine along with valve adjustments, air filter changes, tune-ups and on some engines, decarbonization.

If you follow those three simple steps, you'll have nothing to worry about. There is no need to run synthetic oil in your engine but if throwing away money makes you happy, then by all means, toss it away. For the very few of you who live in places where sub-zero F temp readings are common, then synthetic oil has benefit. But I also have to question your sanity for living in such a climate. :biglaugh: .

Very good advice. Except for your questioning the sanity of northerners. I moved from NY, where I enjoyed snowblowing duties, to KY where I don't get to do that anymore, and I'm just as nutty or more so than before!!!

Thanks, Caseguytoo! :thanku:

 

[arathol]

about the multi vs single viscosity stuff-

to avoid a lot of typing, heres a couple links that give you the general idea about the good and bad

http://members.themotoroilevaluator.com/index.php?id=144

http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/vwtech/oilviscosity.htm

if you have a splasher motor (no filter, no pump or pressurized oil system) it may be better to use 30w ND oil. The detergent additives tend to keep the bad bits in suspension so as to carry them off to the filter system (thats why the oil in your car always looks dark no matter how long its been in there), and since you don't have one they just keep circulating around through your bearings and such, that can't be good.
ND oil however doesn't do that, and particulates just settle to the bottom of the crank case as sludge, and (hopefully) get carried away with the next oil change. Thats one reason motors like the one cyl Kohlers have a 50 hr interval, so as not to get a burned out sludge pile stuck in the bottom of the motor.

 

[Caseguytoo]

I think that what the manufacturer says is a good starting point, but wouldn't you agree that much of what they say is geared toward the “big picture” and not necessarily toward “my” picture? They are motivated to give advice that has the best chance of making the least problems for them, but maybe not for me. For example, if they specify 30HD because they know it will give the best service, but people will not change it to 10W30 when the weather changes, then they might just ignore the 30HD and say to only use 10W30. Decisions like that are made “for us” all the time. I think we need to temper our confidence in what they tell us with lots of caution!

I have to disagree. The least problems for an engine manufacturer means the least problem for you. If Kohler says the best oil to use in their K engines during the summer is 30W, then that's the oil you should use. Yes, it's a dino oil, not a synthetic. But their research has shown that using the 30W gives the engine a very stable viscosity and that reduces oil consumption which in turn reduces carbon buildup in the combustion chamber which reduces the risk of engine damage due to the piston contacting the carbon buildup which also reduces the need to remove the cylinder head and decarbonize. Part of the ownership process is for you, as the owner, to not only read the owner's manual but to actually follow it.

If a doctor tells you to stop smoking because he knows it's killing you, then don't be surprised if you wake up dead one day. If you don't want to heed the advice of experts, then be prepared to pay the price.

Think about this: For years we faithfully read the little tags on our car/truck doors telling us what tire pressure to run. Now we find out (from real tire engineers) that that information has been wrong all along!! We were running with about 10 pounds too little. Now, if I were a conspiracy nut (I'm only a tractor nut!), I might think that Detroit, who didn't have to make better suspensions, the tire companies who were able to sell more tires, and the oil companies who got to sell more fuel, got together and figured out how to fleece the public!! More likely, there were some other factors at work one of which was to specify a pressure that required no thought by an individual driver about what might be best in his circumstance.

It would appear that you are referring to the blame game between Ford and Firestone. I don't see the analogy here. The engine manufacturer isn't trying to mislead you regarding the best grade and type of oil. They're not having to buy new oil for the engines. You are. There is no benefit to them on which brand, type or grade you choose to use. All they're doing is giving you the benefit of their research regarding engine oil. You are free to go your own way because more likely than not, the warranty will be expired prior to you discovering any problem. At that point, you may end up buying all the repair parts from them. So, there's no upside or downside in their recommendation for them.

Very good advice. Except for your questioning the sanity of northerners. I moved from NY, where I enjoyed snowblowing duties, to KY where I don't get to do that anymore, and I'm just as nutty or more so than before!!!

Thanks, Caseguytoo!

My climate is not unlike that of upstate NY. But my comment was actually referring to areas that are much colder than either of us had to endure.

 

[Caseguytoo]

Re: about the multi vs single viscosity stuff-

to avoid a lot of typing, heres a couple links that give you the general idea about the good and bad

http://members.themotoroilevaluator.com/index.php?id=144

http://www.oceanstreetvideo.com/vwtech/oilviscosity.htm

if you have a splasher motor (no filter, no pump or pressurized oil system) it may be better to use 30w ND oil. The detergent additives tend to keep the bad bits in suspension so as to carry them off to the filter system (thats why the oil in your car always looks dark no matter how long its been in there), and since you don't have one they just keep circulating around through your bearings and such, that can't be good.
ND oil however doesn't do that, and particulates just settle to the bottom of the crank case as sludge, and (hopefully) get carried away with the next oil change. Thats one reason motors like the one cyl Kohlers have a 50 hr interval, so as not to get a burned out sludge pile stuck in the bottom of the motor.

:sorry1: I disagree on a number of points. Kohler tells you to use a detergent type motor oil. Keeping the junk in suspension means that when you open the pan drain plug, the junk leaves with the oil. If you use a non-detergent oil, then the junk piles up everywhere inside the engine. What some of you may not realize, the oil in an air cooled engine also plays an important part in keeping the engine cool too. Oil gets splashed over very hot areas and then falls to back to the pan where that heat is transferred to the bottom and sides of the engine. Outside air passes over these areas and take heat away, helping to keep the engine cool.

If you use non-detergent oil, the bottom of the pan and the sides of the block will get built up with crud that acts as an insulator, thus preventing the hot oil from transferring that heat to the engine pan and block so that the outside air can take it away. Now, not only does the engine as a whole run hotter but the oil runs hotter too. This extra heat causes the oil to degrade faster than it should leading to a loss of crucial additives and a breakdown of the oil's lubricity.

The only way to remove all that crud is to dismantle the engine. Of course, that dismantling will likely come sooner than later thanks to a shortened engine life.

And Kohler states quite clearly that you change the oil every 25 hours, not 50 hours. Oil is the cheapest engine component and the easiest to replace. Why screw around with something so vital to your engine's life. Would you stick a needle in your arm and willing accept any blood on the basis that it's red? Or would you prefer to take the advice of qualified Pro's that base their recommendations on years and years of exhaustive research and testing?