Wet Brake question

8697 Views 59 Replies 6 Participants Last post by ptsg, Oct 20, 2021

lhhippie

Discussion Starter · Feb 22, 2019

Hello All,

I have just acquired a Branson 4220 and the previous owner removed all plates within the brake housing. this is the first tractor (aside from a LT) I have owned and do not understand the wet braking system.

some of the reading I have done, kind of reads as the wet brake is getting it's fluid from the hydraulic system/reservoir. other posts kind of read as though ALL fluid beside cooling is the same (Tranny - wet brake - lifting - 3 pt). I did not receive a manual with the tractor but I found some spec's stating 37 gals of hydraulic fluid????? holy cow, is that correct?

so if the wet brake does get it's fluid from the hydraulic reservoir, I am assuming it will just get pumped in when it is running. or do I need to prime it after putting things back together?

more questions to follow and I greatly appreciate the help!!!!!
MTF helped me greatly bringing a 62 Gravely back from a 20 yr sleep, so I know I am on the right forum

41 - 60 of 60 Posts

ptsg

· #41 · Apr 28, 2019

Thanks for the update.

Yeah, after messing the the head and head gaskets, the valves definitely need to be set. Since it's a 4 cylinder, yes, the 1 and 4 cylinders will be 180 apart from 2 and 3. I think your are on to something there. You set the 1 and 4 cylinders, then rotate 180 (align the mark), and set 2 and 3.

I'm kinda used to the 3 cylinder ones.

I haven't look on the timing marks on my tractor. I want to check those but every time I'm going to actually use the tractor, I just forgot. Looking at the service manual for my tractor, the marks are indeed in the same spot as yours. They are just spaced different because mine is a 3 cylinder.

Now for the white smoke. Did you power the glow plugs? If not, you need to energize the glow plugs for maybe 5 to 8 seconds. It will probably start right up. All you need is a wire coming from the positive lead to the glow plugs, hold it for 5 to 8 secs, then remove the wire and crank the engine.

With the original wiring, once you turn the key to run position, it would cycle the glow plugs, but for now you can just run a separate wire.

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lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #42 · Apr 28, 2019

Thanks
Glow plug is next in the list. I did not think it would be necessary as I am in florida and it is about 85 today. But maybe the head being replaced it is going to need a little more to get it going.

ptsg

· #43 · Apr 28, 2019

Yeah, these engines kinda like to have the glow plugs running, otherwise they will just turn forever and take forever to start.

lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #44 · Apr 28, 2019

I could not wait I connected positive lead to glow plug rail for about 10 seconds. It sounds like it wants to start but still no start. I tried this a couple of times, and I do not want to burn up the new starter...... ugh

Smoke changed colors from white to black?

I tried half throttle, no throttle, full throttle still the same NO START!

let me ask you, I set the valves according to timing marks on pulley but I set them to .012” or .3mm. I have seen varying discussions on this point. I have seen .012” thru .015”

What are your thoughts?

Thanks again for your help, it is greatly appreciated!!

ptsg

· #45 · Apr 28, 2019

Is it getting fuel? Does it have electric lift pump or mechanical?

Manuals for A1700, A2200 (yours) and A2300 engines mention a 0.3 mm valve clearance on both exhaust and intake. I would go for the 0.3 mm.

Lets recap:

- You need power to the shut off solenoid so it will allow the fuel to move.
- Power to the electric pump, if this model has one. Some just use a mechanical one.
- Power to glow plugs for a couple seconds
- And try to start it.

I don't know what else can it be.

lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #46 · May 22, 2019

I finally bought compression tester from HF, I know they are not the best but the price is right.

I did a dry test and results not good,.....
1 at 120
2 at 130
3 at 90!!!!!
4 at 260

I then did a wet test and all cylinders jumped up significantly. So looks like I am going to have to tear into it again and check rings.

Do you happen to know what the ring gaps should be?

I have read a few snake oil tricks and I have the cylinders filled with 50/50 seafoam and ATF in an attempt to free up the rings. I plan on letting that sit for multiple days and see what happens.

I’ll report back once I see what’s going on

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ptsg

· #47 · May 22, 2019

Ugh! That's not good.

Interesting that the damaged cylinder is not the worse of all 4.

Do you think that the engine block can be warped?

On the service manual for the 20/25 series I've sent you before, there is a chapter for the engine overhaul with all the details, including ring gap and so on. Branson 4225 uses the same A2000N2 engine as your tractor.

This is what I got from the manual:

Text Font Line Number Parallel

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lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #48 · May 22, 2019

The bad cylinder was number 3 which make sense considering it was a mess.

Thanks for the specs, and the manual much appreciated!

I am some what hopeful the snake oil trick will work..... but judging by the lack of maintenance and blown head gasket and coolant getting block and over heating and broken valve seat ...... ugh that sounds real bad typing it....... I have a feeling the rings are stuck and will need to be reringed. If I can scrape the money together I might throw a new piston in number 3.

But being perpetually broke I will try tearing down / cleaning / reassemble and cross my finger ?. You know the saying more time than money hahahahaha but I have little of both, live and learn I guess.

ptsg

· #49 · May 22, 2019

Oh I thought it was cylinder number 2. In that case, it makes sense. For the other 3, not so much but as you said, looks like it was really abused hard.

I'm with you. I'll everything that may or may not work before I'll go a spend money. Every once in a while, you get away with it though. I've done a transmission mount for my truck out of parts laying around just to save maybe 40 or 50$.

The only other thing I think I can help you is with the engine parts manual.

lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #50 · Jun 2, 2019

Morning is there a way to move this thread to a Branson forum for more technical support? Or is there a Branson forum?

I am not that familiar with site navigation

lhhippie

Discussion Starter · #51 · Sep 22, 2019

Up date...... finally got ?. Last problem I had to overcome was a stuck governor when I started for the first time I had a full on run away on my hands ?? had to shut down by covering the intake. As I always do I torn into the IP after searching for pictures of the IP. Opened the top and worked the governor until it was moving freely. Everyone says to work it hard at start up after ring rebuild....... we’ll revving at Max rpm for 2 min outta do it. Now it fires up with in 2 rotation ???? no smoke and happy to see all gears are working. Hoping to get the FEL on today ?
I can’t up load a video or I would.

Next problem to tackle is figuring out why the steering column pulls out of the assembly?? So weird I can just pull it right out of the housing and slip it right back in. Steering is a little wonky but working. Now I can focus on all of the smaller things that are not right.

Just want to send update as so many of these threads never get up dated.

Thanks for your help it is greatly appreciated ??
Stay tuned I WILL have more questions.

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Ozewolf

· #52 · Oct 3, 2021

I know this is an old Topic however its relevant to me as I have a Branson 5825 25series
Branson Australia has gone Broke at least the resellers Have & the company Branson does Not reply to anything & stuck in a hard place wondering if I bought a NEW LEMON
have a No Brake situation.learnt from this thread about them being wet & having plates am assuming no brake means they are worn out like a clutch plate would be
If I am correct where do I go for parts or are They Adjustable at all ?
I have the manual posted Showing the assy and wish to know what I need to do replace or adjust ??
Hoping someone will revive the thread

ptsg

· #53 · Oct 3, 2021

Ozewolf said:
I know this is an old Topic however its relevant to me as I have a Branson 5825 25series
Branson Australia has gone Broke at least the resellers Have & the company Branson does Not reply to anything & stuck in a hard place wondering if I bought a NEW LEMON
have a No Brake situation.learnt from this thread about them being wet & having plates am assuming no brake means they are worn out like a clutch plate would be
If I am correct where do I go for parts or are They Adjustable at all ?
I have the manual posted Showing the assy and wish to know what I need to do replace or adjust ??
Hoping someone will revive the thread

Just to be clear, you have no brakes on both sides? Or just one side? How many hours on the tractor?

Wet brakes are usually very robust and last a long time before they wear out. Although, they can indeed go bad quite fast by driving around with the parking brake engaged or using the wrong hydraulic oil. Using the wrong hydraulic oil, would also damage the PTO as it uses a wet clutch pack that works similar to the wet brakes.

Good thing on that tractor, is that you can take the wet brakes out without pulling the entire axle housing out. They made it really easy to work on the brakes. If you follow the brake linkage from the pedal to the rear axles, you'll see a round cover where the linkage goes to. Behind that, is where the wet brake is. However, I don't exactly know where the oil level is and you may get a flood of oil, so just be aware of that.

Once you get the wet brake off, you can check the condition. See if the friction discs still have friction material or if the steel discs got really hot or have scoring on it.

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Ozewolf

· #54 · Oct 3, 2021

ptsg said:
Just to be clear, you have no brakes on both sides? Or just one side? How many hours on the tractor?

Wet brakes are usually very robust and last a long time before they wear out. Although, they can indeed go bad quite fast by driving around with the parking brake engaged or using the wrong hydraulic oil. Using the wrong hydraulic oil, would also damage the PTO as it uses a wet clutch pack that works similar to the wet brakes.

Good thing on that tractor, is that you can take the wet brakes out without pulling the entire axle housing out. They made it really easy to work on the brakes. If you follow the brake linkage from the pedal to the rear axles, you'll see a round cover where the linkage goes to. Behind that, is where the wet brake is. However, I don't exactly know where the oil level is and you may get a flood of oil, so just be aware of that.

Once you get the wet brake off, you can check the condition. See if the friction discs still have friction material or if the steel discs got really hot or have scoring on it.

Thanks for the reply
Yes ALMOST None on either side standing on the Pedals
done 700 hrs
No issue with the Pto & using recommended oils
Yes should easy to work on them may need to take the wheels off still
Thanks for confirming the friction Plates or disks May need replacing will check all linkages Again & see about pulling them out on the next spare day I have
will drain the oil 28 litres it says in the operators manual
Getting Parts will be my issue I think Kukje have no dealers here & get no answers from Branson Au Trying Brismac in QLD also
Thanks again for the reply been searching for 3 weeks for info
wil advise what I find

ptsg

· #55 · Oct 3, 2021

Ozewolf said:
Thanks for the reply
Yes ALMOST None on either side standing on the Pedals
done 700 hrs
No issue with the Pto & using recommended oils
Yes should easy to work on them may need to take the wheels off still
Thanks for confirming the friction Plates or disks May need replacing will check all linkages Again & see about pulling them out on the next spare day I have
will drain the oil 28 litres it says in the operators manual
Getting Parts will be my issue I think Kukje have no dealers here & get no answers from Branson Au Trying Brismac in QLD also
Thanks again for the reply been searching for 3 weeks for info
wil advise what I find

Yes, the wheel does need to come off to access the brakes.

My F36 takes 37 liters, so I guess yours should take a little bit more than mine. I was checking the the service manual and definitely needs to be drained.

I have the service manual in PDF by the way. Let me know if you don't have, as I can figure a way to send it to you.

Here is a picture of the service manual. So the parts #4 and 5 are the friction and steel discs, respectively. Pay special attention to part #7 and 6 as those are springs and bearing balls that will probably fall off once the cover comes out. You don't want to lose any of that.

Another thing I suggest you to do, is to change the O-ring (#8) and maybe the oil seal (#16) on the pivot shaft #10 and lube the shaft with grease when reassembly. Branson failed to add a grease fitting for this shaft and if not used regularly, it can rust in place and basically lock in place. This is usually a bigger problem for tractors with Hydrostatic transmission because the brakes are not used that often and specially in countries with snow as moisture with make it rust faster. The O-ring and the oil seal is just cheap insurance as you don't want to find out later that the thing is leaking because of an old o-ring. You should be able to find it easily on a hydraulic shop or something similar.

Finding someone who can get you parts in the Australia may be indeed a problem. I remember reading sometime ago that the main importer basically dropped of Branson or something similar.

Another solution is trying to get in touch with a dealer in the US that may be willing to ship the parts to you. Big Tex Tractor Co. or Dave's Tractors are two dealers I remember that are always willing to help people out.

Hopefully this info helps you.

Automotive tire Font Motor vehicle Auto part Art

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Ozewolf

· #56 · Oct 3, 2021

Yes Thanks Got it from Link further back in the thread Dropbox
US may be my only option
Great advise Thanks
Let you Know how I go

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Ozewolf

· #57 · Oct 20, 2021

2

Hi PTSG
Have striped it Down Needed to take one axle out to replace the seal Also
Attached Pics of the Disks & Plates there is about 1mm of friction on them as can be seen from Pics

Insect Asphalt Font Circle Pattern

Automotive tire Wheel Bicycle part Motor vehicle Rim

so am guessing they should be like a drum brake thickness Have Found an AU dealer (INLON PTY LTD) who is able to get them for me
WolfBarn

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ptsg

· #58 · Oct 20, 2021

That's great news about finding a source for parts in AU.

The discs on these style of wet brakes or wet clutches won't be very thick. Maybe 2 mm or something around that.

Other than the steel discs having some discoloration from getting too hot, the frictions discs don't look that bad but they are probably glazed over which is why it won't brake. It's better just to get a new set of friction and steel discs and be done with it.

Once you get the new parts put back it, make sure you adjust the brake linkages again so it's not dragging and possibly damaging the new parts.

Reactions: 1

Ozewolf

· #59 · Oct 20, 2021

ptsg said:
That's great news about finding a source for parts in AU.

The discs on these style of wet brakes or wet clutches won't be very thick. Maybe 2 mm or something around that.

Other than the steel discs having some discoloration from getting too hot, the frictions discs don't look that bad but they are probably glazed over which is why it won't brake. It's better just to get a new set of friction and steel discs and be done with it.

Once you get the new parts put back it, make sure you adjust the brake linkages again so it's not dragging and possibly damaging the new parts.

Thanks I appreciate the assistance very much will replace the Lot you have been much more help than Kujke who StIll have not responded to 4 emails I have sent them

ptsg

· #60 · Oct 20, 2021

Ozewolf said:
Thanks I appreciate the assistance very much will replace the Lot you have been much more help than Kujke who StIll have not responded to 4 emails I have sent them

No worries! Just trying to help a fellow Branson owner. 👍

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