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Discussion Starter #1
I bought a 1983 PTO horse tiller for $100 from a guy who indicated that under a load the tines would stop. When I took the tiller attachment off, one can see that the tips of the "teeth" of both clutch dogs is worn off. When I measured the distances from the tooth base (of each clutch dog) to the opennings of both the power unit and the tiller attachment, the clutch dog teeth only overlap 1-2 mm max. In other words, the teeth barely engage each other and are now somewhat rounded off. And yes, this measurement was made with the PTO moved to the engaged position. Here are my questions then: 1)What are the original specs for minimum and maximum overlap here. 2) Does anyone have the proper service manual info for this age PTO tiller? My transmission manual has no info on PTO's. 3) If there is no adjustment to either the power unit side or the attachment side, then does anybody have any ideas for a fix here? Weld on some longer dog teeth is all I can think of......anybody else? This baffles me because it looks like it came from the factory like this. It does have one of the earliest PTO serial #'s. Any input you guys can give me would be great. Thanks to you all ahead of time.

Brian:crybaby:
 

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I think I would take both sides apart and clean it all up to make sure nothing was stuck, there is a spring on the tiller side. If both the drive dog and clutch dog are worn to the level you indicated, I think I would also start with replacing both. The clutch dog is PN GW-2120-1, and the drive dog is PN GW-2120-2. The parts should move freely on either side, and there should be plenty of grease in there.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello Sean, Thanks for your response. Yah, I had cleaned it up already and the dogs are both at their maximum throws. If I were to replace them, the teeth still would only overlap that 1-2mm as I mentioned previously and I can't believe this was all the overlap the factory intended. Especially since the tiller side is spring loaded as you mentioned, I would think that they should fully seat but we are not even close to that. My guess is that one or both of the shafts needs to move and were not set correctly at the factory but that is purely a guess since I don't know if they even CAN be adjusted. Any more thoughts?
Brian:banghead3
 

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Man I wish I could see this first hand. I am by no means a Troy Bilt Horse expert (yet). I just got my first 3 weeks ago, (a 1984 Horse III with the 8 hp Briggs), but mine came with all the documentation, and even the receipt from the last time the tines were replaced, and the parts catalog from 1984. (Most of the documentation can be found on line though.) So I had plenty of reference material while I completely disassembled the Tiller Transmission, and tore down and rebuilt most of the main unit, just to inspect and clean it up and to refresh all of the fluids and such, so I am at least recently familiar with the hardware, and what you describe just does not sound right. The drive dog teeth on mine fully engage.

Both the main shaft in the main box, and the tiller shaft in the tiller box have adjustment shims, to properly load the bearings, I suppose it’s possible if the 3 bolt flange on the front of the main box and the 3 bolt flange on the back of the tiller box were loose, or if the shafts were not shimmed correctly the condition you describe at the dogs could happen. I believe these are to be adjusted like a wheel bearing on a car, just a slight drag on the shaft when the 3 bolt flange is properly torqued up, and nothing else is touching the shaft. The other thing I think I would look at is if the tiller transmission is fully seating into the main body of the tiller.

I would look at the parts catalog and other documentation online as well, if you haven’t already. If you put in Horse for the model and your serial number here it will take you to the manuals.

Link to Troy Bilt Manual site
http://manuals.mtdproducts.com/mtd/public/list.jsp?BrandCode=10001

If it was me in addition to checking the 2, 3 bolt flanges for looseness, I think I would pull the handlebars off, and take the top cover off the transmission, (it’s only 4 bolts) and see if anything is moving around that shouldn’t be.

Good Luck man
Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hey Bigbird,
Yes it does sound crazy doesn't it! You said your dog teeth fully engage. So does that mean 100% of the teeth overlap or just partially? I will do as you suggest and pull the top off because this is just too weird. I was hoping there would be an easy fix but I don't think that is going to happen. I will try to find that info online for the PTO transmission catalog. Thanks for your suggestions and keep me in mind if you come across any related info if you would. Thanks for your help!

Brian
 

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I'll have to take a look at the PTO engagement tomorrow after the rain stops. Obviously I can't see the teeth once the Tiller is installed, but I hear a solid clunk/ snap, when the teeth don't line up initially. I should be able to see a witness mark on them as well, but I don't recall seeing any wear at all on the dog teeth when I had mine apart.

As for pulling off the top cover, it's really no big deal. You have to undo the reverse spring/ stop set up, and the handle bars, then its just removing 4 bolts, and loosening one.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sean, If you can, would you take some measurements as well. On the power unit with the PTO lever fully engaged, measure from the base of the dog (in other words at the base of the teeth) to the first lip of the power unit housing. Then on the tiller unit, measure once again from the base of the dogs teeth, backwards to the first lip of the transmission body that inserts into the front unit and tell me what you come up with. Inches or mm's is fine....hopefully that made sense. The tips of my dog teeth are rounded off starting about 2mm back from the tips. Does your PTO lever still have the small roller bearing that rides on the back of the dog to engage it or do you have just a bolt. I'm told they got rid of the roller bearing because it failed prematurely. My tiller is also an 8 horse briggs. It was WAY out of adjustment and wouldn't run but things are coming together. I'm getting anxious to bury those tines in the ground and get a garden in. Have you found any straight 140 weight GL-4 gear oil? I found GL-2 but only in the UK and they want you to buy a large quantity. Have a good day!
Brian
 

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I'll take some measurements, but I am not sure if I will be able to get them tonight or not. I won’t be home until late.

As for the carb, I rebuilt mine, just to freshen it up, and while trouble shooting an idle issue which ended up having nothing to do with the carb, but I didn't find root cause (a piece of a leaf in the tank pet ****, and 2 inches of missing insulation on the spark plug wire) until after I had disassembled a perfectly good working carb. But regardless I just set the needles both at 1.5 turns out from lightly seated as specified, and it ran great. I tweaked the main needle just a bit, but the idle seemed fine so I left the idle needle alone.

Mine does have a roller bearing that engaged and disengaged the drive dog on the main unit side. It seemed fine when I pulled it out too; I just cleaned it up and re-greased it. I wonder if for some reason, when you move the engage/ disengage lever into position, you aren’t actually moving the drive dog as far as it is supposed to move. I’ll measure the distance of travel of the drive dog too.

For gear lube, I just went down to the local auto parts store and picked up a couple gallons of 85W140. I thoroughly flushed and cleaned both transmission units, and I plan to drain and disassemble the tiller transmission this winter to see what the lube looks like, and to see how things are wearing because the brass gear and the tiller shaft at the back have seen better days.

Sean
 

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Scesh, what else are you supposed to call the pet [email protected]? Apparently the sensors here didn't like it? I guess maybe, the tank shut off valve or something like that? Sorry moderators I didn’t mean to offend anyone.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #10
That's pretty funny Big Bird! I took my carb apart only to find that the float tang was bent so the float was stuck down. Works great now.

DON'T MAKE ANY MEASUREMENTS. :Stop: I remeasured for about the 8th time and discovered that my brain needs to be traded in. Looks like there is enough contact there after all. The PTO arm that holds that little bearing was bent however. Not sure what the guy did to do that but I'm sure it played a roll somehow. I also wonder if the spring behind the tiller dog is soft so I might replace that. Sorry to waste your time!

Brian
 

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Brian, how was this a waste? It sounds like we got your problem solved, sounds like time well spent to me.

:thThumbsU

:trink39:

Sean
 

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Bigbird speakum wise words!:fing32: I took your advise last night and celebrated but I guess I am a lightweight cuz this morning I :thSick: . Not really, just wanted to use that face. I'm just waiting for new tine axle seals to arrive. Already received some shims and gaskets. There was a little wobble there so that should take care of it. Another friend is welding on some new tine housing sides since the old ones had fallen off long ago. They are one of the few weak links that I have spotted on this mostly stout machine. The other is that small PTO bearing. I had purchase NOS tines on ebay and put those on already. Have you messed with those yet? I can't for the life of me figure out (in my little brain:fing20: ) why the right 3 tine gangs are assembled the same and the far left one is different. If you figure out what the factory had in mind, let me know. I suppose maybe I should do a search in this forum to see if anyone else knows. I think I mentioned earlier that GL-5 gear oil is corrosive to yellow metals. It's the EP (extreme pressure) additive that we don't need in our application, but what else are we going to do if GL-2 thru GL-4 are so difficult to find?

Brian
 

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I too have a few welds on the Tine hood that need to be re-welded, but it’s nothing that a buddy with a welder can’t fix.

I have messed with all of my tines, I found left gang was loose when I started tinkering. I didn’t look at the tines that closely before I bought the tiller. The tines had been replaced a couple times by the previous owner, and the heavy duty tines were installed on the last replacement, in 1999, and they still look pretty decent now, so my main intent was to remove the slop. I have the cast iron tine holder too. I think I came up with an idea that will fix the slop, but I haven’t gotten a chance to till with it since I tried my “fix”, so I’ll have to report back on that later. And the reason the far left tine is assembled differently, has to do with the way the tine gangs are positioned, I believe the inner gangs lead the outer, as far as when the tines hit the ground, but I would have to look at them again, and I am not near my tiller right now.

As for the lubes, I am just starting to research this. The general theme I am finding, is that today, it makes no difference, but in the early days of GL-5, there were some additional additives in the GL-5 rated lubes that the GL-4 and down did not have, that were harder on “yellow” metals, but that isn’t an issue with today’s GL-5 rated lubes. The other thing I found too, is that it wasn’t the GL rating directly, it was the additional anti wear additives that the GL-5 lubes contained. Like I said these are just my initial findings, and I don’t have a good story yet. The lube I refilled both the tiller and main transmission was 85W-140 with had both GL-4 and GL-5 ratings on it, and I plan on draining and tearing down the Tiller Transmission this winter to see how it looks because it has wear in it now. I am curious to see what other have to say on this as well. I mean from the simple standpoint of GL-5 is used in automobile transmissions, which have yellow metals used for synchros, so it makes me wonder why this would be any different.


Sean
 

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I have found a whole lot of opinion out there, and a little fact too with respect to the oils, so I am still not sure of anything other than I am going to look at things this fall. :)

The lube I got is actually GL-5 GL-4 and GL-3 and said it was for garden tillers too, which is part of why I grabbed it, so who knows.

The only bit of info that i think would save us regardless on this is that the additives in the gear lube that allow it to meet GL-5 spec, does not become corrosive to yellow metal until 250F and up. I can't really see my garden tiller running a gearbox at 250F, I could be wrong, but I just won't guess it.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Now that's interesting with regard to the temp. Take a look at the thread I posted regarding oils. One guy responded with a Mobil 1 product for worm drives called SHC 634. Lot's of info on the net about it but it still does not designate what the GL rating is. Sounds like it would work though.

Another question for you: A guy told me that I should have an o-ring at the base of the male (tiller) side of the PTO. Is that present on yours?

Brian
 

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Couple of rookie questions: I recently purchased a 1992 Pony that appears to be in excellent mech. condition OA. Obvious that the original owner used very little, he said that he changed oil only, original spark plug still in place, started first pull operates fine, tills strong.

Question: Beyond oil change, what maintenance should I consider. Is 30 wt, preferred over 10 W 30? Should I consider changing the original gear oil? The only GL 5 synthetic that I could find out there is the Mobil One product. From the literature and posts I understand that the yellow metal protection in the trans is very important. My favorite shade tree mech. has advised me not to fix what does not need fixing....Thanks
 

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Paul, Your favorite shade tree mechanic is dead on. We assume you got the Owner's Manual from the original owner. Read it ! Follow it ! Most of us now use 10W30. That's about the only change to the original manual. Straight 30W is tough when cold on machine surfaces.
Don't fill the gas tank if your not going to use it all up.
Better to use smaller amounts and have to refresh with newer gas than to allow the "new" gas to sit in the tank for long periods. Made a note to yourself. Every month or so let it run for 15-20 minutes or so, referabiy under load.
In these forums notice the trouble people have had rebuilding carburetors cause the "new" crap gas destroyed the gaskets, packings and hoses. Yes, even the old hoses can't take this new stuff.
Enjoy,
Ford
 

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Couple of rookie questions: I recently purchased a 1992 Pony that appears to be in excellent mech. condition OA. Obvious that the original owner used very little, he said that he changed oil only, original spark plug still in place, started first pull operates fine, tills strong.

Question: Beyond oil change, what maintenance should I consider. Is 30 wt, preferred over 10 W 30? Should I consider changing the original gear oil? The only GL 5 synthetic that I could find out there is the Mobil One product. From the literature and posts I understand that the yellow metal protection in the trans is very important. My favorite shade tree mech. has advised me not to fix what does not need fixing....Thanks
I'd clean or better yet replace the air filter. These engines work in a VERY dusty, dirty environment.
 
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