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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello everyone,

I've been asking you a lot of questions about loaders and hydraulics, and now I'm getting closer to mounting my new loader on the x595.

Tire Wheel Vehicle registration plate Plant Vehicle

My intention is to use the original mounting brackets (for Kioti CS2610) and adapt them to the tractor.
Here is the original version:
Road surface Bumper Automotive exterior Gas Asphalt Tire Wheel Motor vehicle Automotive tire Tread

I had a friend help in eliminating the lower part, and fabricating a new plate to mount to the tractor:
Wood Tread Automotive tire Electrical wiring Wall Gas Fixture Bumper Composite material Metal

At the same time, I'm doing a complete service of the unit, installing the pressure relief valve, and adding a joystick.

Tool Measuring instrument Cable Electrical supply Gas
To make things even more complicated than @X748SE, but starting with his work as inspiration, I'm trying to achieve this as a starting point.
Art Font Wood Gesture Twig

As you can see, I plan on jamming the original SCV under the mower deck height select rotor (as Fireguy1200 did on his x748) and put 2 diverter valves on the 2 circuits running from it (in the location where Roger installed the 3 spool SCV). These diverter valves, controlled by a switch added right beside the joystick, will redirect flow from the front, to the back. This way I don't have to use the column levers anymore (yay).

From there, the 2 buttons on the joystick will be used to control a 3rd and 4th function, one at the front and one at the back. I'm sure I'll get ideas for a true 4th function front and back, and then I'll double the wire from one button to two diverter valves.

I'll keep you guys posted...right now it's 14 deg F around here....so not much progress this weekend.
 

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I don't understand your hydraulic diagram, neither the picture nor the words you used to describe it.

A diverter valve doesn't control a function. It diverts flow to a different location. You still have to have a real valve do the control.

From what I remember of your project, you are planning on using the joystick to control/manipulate the SCV that is part of the tractor. I am guessing that is the thing in the center of your drawing.

You need a circuit for lift/lower and another one for dump/curl. That is 2 circuits (4 hoses). You need another circuit for deck lift/lower. You want a rear remote circuit (dump cart?).

Normally, the deck lift cylinder shares the circuit with the front lift/lower remote. H3 typically refers to adding a valve (typically an actual valve, not just a diverter) to make these independent.

H4 would typically be used to add another circuit up front to support a grapple. I did this with a diverter valve, which allows me to use the dump/curl circuit to control the grapple (with my joystick).

H5 would typically add a rear remote. I am adding a second joystick valve on my CUT to give me two remotes to allow me to add a top-n-tilt to my 3 point hitch. That will give my 6 circuits.
1. Three point hitch
2. Loader lift/lower
3. Loader curl/dump
4. Loader grapple (via diverter on loader)
5. Rear 1 (top link)
6. Rear 2 (3PH tilt)

Diverters are great, but they do cause a pressure loss, so they will slow down your hydraulics some. For many things this is good. (People actually put in flow restrictors to slow things down deliberately). But, for dump it can be a not good thing. Since you only have two real valves, you will have to have a diverter before the curl cylinder. I would limit it to one. So figure out how you plan on plumbing this. Also, make sure your diverters are rated for continuous duty. They have a coil that draws some current and can get quite hot when left on for a long time.

Diverters are cool, but they can be confusing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hey @Frogmore, thanks for replying.

You got it right that the original SCV is the one in the middle. From that, I connect 2 diverter valves, which in the default position just let the flow go forward to the front of the tractor.
When activated by the switch, they divert the flow to the back. The 6 holes at the bottom right are a replacement panel with quick connects for the original SCV location.

There are 2 additional diverters that work as if I had a normal setup, diverting the flow from curl to grapple and from 3PH &MMM to hyd. top link.

So, the only "complicated" part is the replacement of the conventional modification with an additional 2 spool SCV with 2 diverters, such that I can use the same control (the joystick) for both front and back.

Thank you for the question about the long term use of the diverters. They should all be unenergized most of the time, but I will check to make sure there are no problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I did a dry fit for the loader support brackets and they fit perfectly. Waiting for better weather to do the final cutting and welding of the crossbar. Sadly I don’t have a workshop to work in while the weather is bad. But maybe I’ll prepare for next winter.

Automotive tire Tire Hood Motor vehicle Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive tire Hood Vehicle Automotive lighting

I also did a test run on the diverter valves in between the frame beams and it's a very tight fit. I sadly could only find valves that support 315 bar at a reasonable price, and they are a little beefier than the 200 bar ones. I’ll purchase some 90-degree fittings next week and see if I can make the things fit. Otherwise, I’ll probably abandon the idea of having the joystick control both front and back implements.

Motor vehicle Hood Green Vehicle Automotive tire
 
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I have the front and rear auxiliary circuits tee'd together. My thought was that I wouldn't have a grapple operating on the loader with a hydraulic top link or dump wagon on the back at the same time. The control for this circuit is a separate lever and not incorporated into the joystick. I have H5 and no diverters but I'm cheating and have 2 hydraulic pumps.
 

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I don't understand your hydraulic diagram, neither the picture nor the words you used to describe it.

A diverter valve doesn't control a function. It diverts flow to a different location. You still have to have a real valve do the control.

From what I remember of your project, you are planning on using the joystick to control/manipulate the SCV that is part of the tractor. I am guessing that is the thing in the center of your drawing.

You need a circuit for lift/lower and another one for dump/curl. That is 2 circuits (4 hoses). You need another circuit for deck lift/lower. You want a rear remote circuit (dump cart?).

Normally, the deck lift cylinder shares the circuit with the front lift/lower remote. H3 typically refers to adding a valve (typically an actual valve, not just a diverter) to make these independent.

H4 would typically be used to add another circuit up front to support a grapple. I did this with a diverter valve, which allows me to use the dump/curl circuit to control the grapple (with my joystick).

H5 would typically add a rear remote. I am adding a second joystick valve on my CUT to give me two remotes to allow me to add a top-n-tilt to my 3 point hitch. That will give my 6 circuits.
1. Three point hitch
2. Loader lift/lower
3. Loader curl/dump
4. Loader grapple (via diverter on loader)
5. Rear 1 (top link)
6. Rear 2 (3PH tilt)

Diverters are great, but they do cause a pressure loss, so they will slow down your hydraulics some. For many things this is good. (People actually put in flow restrictors to slow things down deliberately). But, for dump it can be a not good thing. Since you only have two real valves, you will have to have a diverter before the curl cylinder. I would limit it to one. So figure out how you plan on plumbing this. Also, make sure your diverters are rated for continuous duty. They have a coil that draws some current and can get quite hot when left on for a long time.

Diverters are cool, but they can be confusing.
You are correct. I would look at a 2 spool set up with float..Diverters run hydraulic oil temps to unacceptable levels. Like trying to run a closed center system on open
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey @grandpajay! Thanks for pitching in.
Yeah, I have been trying to figure out the best way to enable the functions I would like (3 front 3 back atm), and this is what I ended up with as the cleanest way to utilize. Albeit, it's probably the most complicated as a system.
What I can do, is have a 2 spool SCV and add a rocker switch for one of the steering column levers to switch between the 3PH/MMM and the top link. But that would take the fun out of using the joystick and its 2 buttons :p

@dave2280 would that happen even when the diverter is in the default position? If so, I'll definitely reconsider them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I just checked and it seems that the JD X595 has a total flow of 6.2 gpm. The diverters I got have 13.2gpm capacity...so that’s more than double.
I would assume this translates to bigger chambers in them, and also bigger overall body to disipate the heat generated by the solenoid. Would this make sense?

I know @TUDOR is considered thehydraulics veteran, maybe he can pitch in as well.
 

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On an open center system, the normal path for fluid is:
1. Hydraulic pump output
2. First SCV input
3. First SCV power beyond port (if it has one) or tank return (if no PB port)
4. Second SCV input
5. Second SCV output
6. Hydraulic tank

Diverters divert between implements on the output ports after the SCV. They are only in the circuit when the SCV sends flow to an implement. The diverter valves determine which implement gets the flow.

It is often possible to do a search to find actual data on the flow/resistance curves of a particular valve. I know I looked up the numbers of a very small valve that Surplus Center had. They had no data on it, but I found what was probably the manufacturer and they had a data sheet. This valve had SAE 4 connections and was a third the price of the more standard ones with SAE 8 connections. While "rated" for more than the flow I needed, it had quite high pressure loss even at the flow I needed. I ended up getting the bigger valve, like you did. I am glad I did, since even with it, it seems my dump response is slightly slower. My guess is that the slight restriction reduces the flow and dump speed is all about maximum flow. It is still very usable and having the third function is invaluable, so a good trade off. I might switch it to the raise/lower circuit, but I worry that might lower my lift capability somewhat. I though I noticed a reduction in that already. It is not from the diverter, since it is not on that circuit. But, it could be from the extra 85lbs of quick attach hardware and 4" farther out the bucket is. I only notice it with a very full bucket of gravel. I have to back up slightly to raise it, which I don't recall needing to do before. But, once again, having quick attach for the bucket is great. I have it for the whole loader, but have never actually removed it, since it is so convenient having a loader (but, this is on a much larger tractor).
 

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Following along (to learn), this looks like a great project!

Please post details (model/part numbers, sources, etc.) of the parts you're using, especially the joystick, valves, etc.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
@dave2280 that was actually my inspiration. I saw how he switched a button and then started controlling the back hydraulics :) and then my mind went ... boooooom :)))

@mikeinri glad to have you coming along.
The parts are said to be imported from Italy, the diverter valves are from Hydro-pack and the joystick is Indemar model 3369.
Oddly enough, the link for the documentation on the valves has a Tukey link in it, but the small tin plate on the actual diverter says Hydro-pack which is Italy.
 
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I sadly could only find valves that support 315 bar at a reasonable price, and they are a little beefier than the 200 bar ones.
The TT site says the maximum pressure for the K92 is 50 bar, but I am pretty sure people adjust the limit to 100 bar.
K92 - Tuff Torq Corporation

So you bought the bigger valves, because they were cheaper than the smaller ones, and not because you thought you needed the higher pressure rated ones?

The pressure curve you linked shows that at 15 lpm, the resistance of the valve is from 1 to 5 bar (depending on how many stacked diverter valves the fluid has passed). At 50 bar, losing 5 bar is probably significant and will slow down the hydraulics enough to be noticeable. At 100 bar, losing 1 bar is probably not noticeable.

I have an equivalent valve to what you have:
13 GPM 12 Volt DC SAE 8 Solenoid Operated Double Selector Valve Dynamic DSV-62-08-12 | Selector Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
2016REVISED_DynamicFullCatalog.indd (baileyhydraulics.com)

This is the one that I decided was too small (too much restriction) for my usage:
6.6 GPM 12 Volt DC Double Selector Valve DFE080 | Selector Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com
DFE080-D1WWEG01-US.pdf (walvoil.com)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
@Frogmore you are right in saying I bought that one because it was the only one available at a decent price.
And in RO most of them are from 10-13 GPM and up, since we don't use small tractors that much. I am probably one of a handful to have such a machine in RO. Not being coy, just saying that the appropriate parts are hard to find.

I also bought a pressure gauge and will be measuring the pressure and raising it from probably 900-1000 to 1400 (96 gpm) at full throttle. I saw @mrbeef runs it like that and it should be enough under the limit to be ok.

Also, I forgot to mention, the diverter valve also has a pressure relief embedded in it, because normal pressure is at 210 bar, and at the max 315, it redirects the flow to the Tank...it has an additional port for that. So I think in itself it's quite heavy duty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Btw, I wanted to ask you guys. Can you mess around with the hyd. lines while having oil in the system? I just bled the entire oil out of it to change it to new and didn't fill it back to wait for fitting the diverter valves & everything.
But that means my tractor is on a standstill out in the weather (covered with a tarp, but none the less)...and I would really prefer to fill it up and move it back to the barn if possible.
 

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That sounds the same as the valve I have. I don't use the additional port and have it capped off. My tractor's max hydraulic pressure is under 150 bar and I didn't want to plumb an additional line all the way back to the tank. I think it is a fine valve and I am sure it will serve you well. The coil is rated for continuous duty so you should be fine.

Using a diverter to select between front and rear can be good, but only if you have implements/cylinders on both the front and rear at the same time. For my project, I wanted 3 things, grapple, and top-n-tilt. For T-N-T I wanted to be able to have float. I was going to use a sectional SCV that allows selecting each section independently. That would have meant I could have gotten three valves with float. That would have been quite expensive and I wasn't sure I really needed all that capability (or where I would fit it). So I bought this: 2 Spool 10 GPM Chief 220957 Joystick Loader Control Valve w/Float Chief 220957 | Chief | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com
I haven't installed it yet. It only has a single float circuit. I thought about what tasks would really need float. It might be useful for tilt to allow the implement to follow the existing grade. It might also be useful for the top link when moving in an area where the grade is changing to allow the implement to follow it better. I wasn't sure I really needed to be able to do both at the same time. I decided to save $300 and lose float on one circuit and an extra circuit instead of buying this: 3 Spool Prince SV Sectional Control Valve Open Center w/Power Beyond | Prince SV Complete Valves | Prince Model SV | Sectional Control Valves | Hydraulic Valves | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com (with float valves).

Since I haven't installed it yet, it is hard to say if it was the right decision or not. Of course, the fact that I haven't installed it yet, means I really don't NEED it. It is pretty easy to go overboard with saying, I really need this , when it is more of a, "I REALLY want this."
 

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Thanks for the parts info. Your links didn't work for me (maybe we're restricted in the USA?). That's OK, as long as you post the make/model we can usually find info.

Looking forward to the build details, particularly the linkages and hookups!

Mike
 

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Can you mess around with the hyd. lines while having oil in the system?
Yes, but you need to make sure the pressure is released (move the valves back and forth with the engine off). High pressure hydraulic fluid can easily penetrate the skin and cause some serious health issues, so be very careful and don't use your fingers to check for leaks. You will likely get some spillage when you fully open the connection, so check the level after you put things back together (more than once).
 
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