[BullShark]

I was at Lowes today so having just bought a model 28848 6500 garden tractor I took a few minutes to compare it to the John Deere lawn tractors they had. The LA175 and LA145 seemed to be the most comparable machines. I expected a big difference in fit and finish to jump out at me, but I didn't really see it. Both the Craftsman and John Deere tractors appeared to be equally well put together. The Deere has a decent Briggs and Stratton engine, the Craftsman has a decent Kohler. While I will say that modern build quality doesn't hold a candle to the love that went into manufactured good from 60 or more years ago these new machines appear at least competent and professional. I had heard it suggested that the John Deere LA series frames may be superior to the Craftsman 6500 frames. Honestly when I was looking at them they appeared nearly identical in any way that mattered, at least as far as I could tell without tearing down the tractors. They were both c channel frames of apparently the same thickness with very similar supports and construction. The biggest differences I could see was slightly different locations for access and bolts holes. One thing I did notice was the edge of the rear wheel wells on the Craftsman are rolled under while on the John Deere LA's they're straight edged stamped. In my book that's a 1 point advantage to the Craftsman. The Craftsman also has a metal hood, the John Deeres had what felt like fiberglass. There's nothing wrong with fiber glass but I like metal. I also didn't see a 12v accessory outlet on the Deere but my Craftsman has one. Finally the Deere costs more but does not come with a ground engaging tranny while my Craftsman has a Tuff Torq K 66Y.

I also took a look at an older non-step through GT 5000 they had as a return at a Sears Outlet store because I've heard it said the non-step through frames were much stronger than the new ones. Everything from the rear of the engine forward looks an awful lot like my c channel step through frame. From the rear of the engine backward it rises into a large box section. While the large box section probably does make for a little more stiffness and support for the seat and the mower deck I'm not entirely convinced it would make the machine overall a whole lot stronger. It seems to me that the most critical area of the frame is under the engine and there it's the same. The metal appeared to be of the same thickness too. I will readily say that the L channel or angle iron style step through frame that the 6500 originally had doesn't seem as tough as the new c channel or the old non-step through design. In regards to the near 100lbs difference in weight between to the old GT 5000 and the new 6500 I'm not really sure where that comes from. As fas as I could see there was maybe 10 or 20 pounds of steel's worth of difference between the frames. The mower decks appeared very similar in construction. It looked like both have aluminum trannies and engines of nearly the same sizes. My guess is that the stated weights probably aren't 100% accurate though I have no way to prove that.

Part of the reason I wanted to take another look at the John Deere LA's was because I read that some people were buying them, using them as garden tractors and replacing the tranny with a ground engaging model if/when they went. I wanted to determine if that would have maybe been a better route for me to go than buying a 6500. Honestly I'd have to say that by all appearances there is no big advantage to an LA175 over a Craftsman 6500. In fact since the Deere is more expensive and doesn't have the upgraded transmission I feel it would actually be going a step backwards unless you were just a John Deere fan and that's fine too.

If I was really trying to save a buck I could probably have made due with a Craftsman 4500 which appears to have the same frame as the 6500 and a similar one to the LA 175/145, and drop in the K 66 later on down the road. While I know that Deere makes bigger and badder things on the high end than what is available through Craftsman I don't see anything anywhere near the 6500 in terms of price that is available from Deere that actually looks like a better value or clearly superior machine. I have to guess that a good part of the price difference can be attributed to that green paint I've heard so much about. :hide:

 

[music-in-a-bottle]

I was at Lowes today so having just bought a model 28848 6500 garden tractor I took a few minutes to compare it to the John Deere lawn tractors they had. The LA175 and LA145 seemed to be the most comparable machines. I expected a big difference in fit and finish to jump out at me, but I didn't really see it. Both the Craftsman and John Deere tractors appeared to be equally well put together. The Deere has a decent Briggs and Stratton engine, the Craftsman has a decent Kohler. While I will say that modern build quality doesn't hold a candle to the love that went into manufactured good from 60 or more years ago these new machines appear at least competent and professional. I had heard it suggested that the John Deere LA series frames may be superior to the Craftsman 6500 frames. Honestly when I was looking at them they appeared nearly identical in any way that mattered, at least as far as I could tell without tearing down the tractors. They were both c channel frames of apparently the same thickness with very similar supports and construction. The biggest differences I could see was slightly different locations for access and bolts holes. One thing I did notice was the edge of the rear wheel wells on the Craftsman are rolled under while on the John Deere LA's they're straight edged stamped. In my book that's a 1 point advantage to the Craftsman. The Craftsman also has a metal hood, the John Deeres had what felt like fiberglass. There's nothing wrong with fiber glass but I like metal. I also didn't see a 12v accessory outlet on the Deere but my Craftsman has one. Finally the Deere costs more but does not come with a ground engaging tranny while my Craftsman has a Tuff Torq K 66Y.

I also took a look at an older non-step through GT 5000 they had as a return at a Sears Outlet store because I've heard it said the non-step through frames were much stronger than the new ones. Everything from the rear of the engine forward looks an awful lot like my c channel step through frame. From the rear of the engine backward it rises into a large box section. While the large box section probably does make for a little more stiffness and support for the seat and the mower deck I'm not entirely convinced it would make the machine overall a whole lot stronger. It seems to me that the most critical area of the frame is under the engine and there it's the same. The metal appeared to be of the same thickness too. I will readily say that the L channel or angle iron style step through frame that the 6500 originally had doesn't seem as tough as the new c channel or the old non-step through design. In regards to the near 100lbs difference in weight between to the old GT 5000 and the new 6500 I'm not really sure where that comes from. As fas as I could see there was maybe 10 or 20 pounds of steel's worth of difference between the frames. The mower decks appeared very similar in construction. It looked like both have aluminum trannies and engines of nearly the same sizes. My guess is that the stated weights probably aren't 100% accurate though I have no way to prove that.

Part of the reason I wanted to take another look at the John Deere LA's was because I read that some people were buying them, using them as garden tractors and replacing the tranny with a ground engaging model if/when they went. I wanted to determine if that would have maybe been a better route for me to go than buying a 6500. Honestly I'd have to say that by all appearances there is no big advantage to an LA175 over a Craftsman 6500. In fact since the Deere is more expensive and doesn't have the upgraded transmission I feel it would actually be going a step backwards unless you were just a John Deere fan and that's fine too.

If I was really trying to save a buck I could probably have made due with a Craftsman 4500 which appears to have the same frame as the 6500 and a similar one to the LA 175/145, and drop in the K 66 later on down the road. While I know that Deere makes bigger and badder things on the high end than what is available through Craftsman I don't see anything anywhere near the 6500 in terms of price that is available from Deere that actually looks like a better value or clearly superior machine. I have to guess that a good part of the price difference can be attributed to that green paint I've heard so much about. :hide:

I think all of the newer stuff isn't as good as the older vintage tractors. I have a 1980 JD 316 that is so incredibly built. Each time I go to lowes I look at the JDs now and cannot believe how cheap they are. It's part of the China syndrome I think.

 

[HiPocket]

Bullshark,

Good comparison. That same conclusion I came to and its why I bought a DGS6500 last fall for a property that I have to keep cut. The only real advantage I saw of the JD was a better reverse pedal action and speed. The Craftsman have a poor rotation on the reverse pedal and resultant slow back up.

 

[Brett-JDX748]

I have a name for the Deere's at the big box stores... MTDeere.

Trust me JD still builds them as good as the 318's the 425's etc.. But you find those, at an honest to goodness John Deere Dealer.

 

[BullShark]

Sure. My point isn't to badmouth JD's, I'm just comparing similarly priced products from a buyer's stand point. The X500 looks like a great machine, but at 3x the price I paid for my DGT6500 it's just beyond my reach. The similarly priced "box store" JD's seem to be of similar overall quality and construction as the Craftsman garden tractors, minus a few little niceties like the 12v accessory outlet, ground engaging transmission, etc. Like I said, Deere clearly makes things that are totally beyond anything I'm aware Sears even offers, this is strictly in relation to "I'm a poor slob who needs a new ready to work garden tractor and I have less than $3,000." After looking at what's available in the price range the Craftsman offers a competitive feature set and build quality. Obviously if you start comparing apples and oranges like a new machine versus a the most perfect possible used machine, or an entry level product to a much more expensive top tier product the picture distorts.

The main thing to me was really the frame. From a lot of the talk I hear I had expected even the "MTDeere" to be clearly superior. Not only because of Deere's reputation but also because there are many people who take a dim view of the 6500's frame. Honestly I think most of that nay saying is being driven by the angle iron/L channel style frame. I would agree on that, it really doesn't convey a sense of strength. The newer c channel style is clearly better, which is probably why Deere uses it too. Coincidentally both the low end Deere and Husqvarna/Craftsman lawn tractors had the L channel frames.

Since my 6500 only arrived yesterday I haven't even leveled the deck yet, never mind taken it out for a mow. I did drive it a few hundred yards down my driveway and maneuvered it into my shed. I remember hearing how slow the reverse was so I tried that out. To be honest I don't even use reverse that much when I'm mowing with a ride on so it may be more of an issue for somebody who does but I didn't find it unbearable. I did find a post on this forum that showed how to modify a little tab of metal that acts as a stop against the reverse pedal to increase speed though, so in any case I don't think it'll be a problem for me.

It is weird how in many cases performance has increased over the years but build quality and longevity have fallen. It does look like current garden tractors are more like beefed up lawn tractors than scaled down CUT's so that's a case where performance has probably fallen too, depending on how you measure it. Still, the more I really look into it the more I realize that anything that's too much for my garden tractor to do probably really requires a much more powerful machine than a garden tractor to do right anyway. For instance I tend to rent an excavator or skid loader about once a year. While I have seen garden tractors that have FEL's on them I know it isn't the same thing as a Bobcat. The biggest thing that gets me on modern manufactured goods is that even on relatively high end equipment you can readily tell that build processes and materials were chosen because they are cheaper to produce, not always because they are better. Sometimes I even get the impression we're paying for a forging and getting a stamping or paying for tempered steel and getting "space age" plastic. I know advanced polymers have their place and all, but I still like good old reliable industrial age steel over space age plastic for many things.

 

[Chris223]

I think all of the newer stuff isn't as good as the older vintage tractors. I have a 1980 JD 316 that is so incredibly built. Each time I go to lowes I look at the JDs now and cannot believe how cheap they are. It's part of the China syndrome I think.

That's really not fair though. You're comparing an entry level John Deere to one of John Deere's select series, and at that a select series built during the time when Deere built some of the finest tractors ever built.

 

[SockPuppet]

I completely agree with you and it's why I chose my DGS6500.

When People start comparing Deere to Craftsman, It's always a more expensive model they compare the Craftsman to.

Sorry, but I don't need green paint and a plastic hood. If JD can give me a comparable tractor at a comparable price, I'm interested. If all they have to offer is their name and a reputation built on the past, I'll pass. Current market conditions are a world away from 1950.

 

[FrankMA]

:congrats: Well written, articulate and insightful - you really nailed it down Bullshark. :MTF_wel2:

 

[Grateful11]

>"The X500 looks like a great machine, but at 3x the price I paid for my DGT6500 it's just beyond my reach."

Not unless you got your DGT6500 for $1666m because the X500 can be had for $5K.

I suspect the premium GT's of yesteryear were what like $3K and up. Figure
in inflation and that's probably in line with today's premiums. Personally I
bought an X500 and took it back didn't perform like I thought it should, the
difference between it and the X700 series is huge, I'm not belittling the X500
series just stating my observation.

 

[zuidema1]

Nice write up. I personally would have loved to have bought an X500, but my DGS6500 fits my needs for a lot less money. For now I'll have to be content with occasionally driving a JD utility vehicle or small tractor accross the dock at work.

 

[BullShark]

Not unless you got your DGT6500 for $1666m because the X500 can be had for $5K.

I got it for very close to that. I'm always watching for sales and clearance events.

I suspect the premium GT's of yesteryear were what like $3K and up. Figure
in inflation and that's probably in line with today's premiums. Personally I
bought an X500 and took it back didn't perform like I thought it should, the
difference between it and the X700 series is huge, I'm not belittling the X500
series just stating my observation.

According to official figures the purchasing power of the dollar is nearly 1/3 of what it was in 1980. Inflation will eat you alive. If people had any idea of how quickly the money they had "saved" in the bank was really disappearing there would be riots in the streets. Similarly enough money has been thrown at the bailouts that more than 90% of American homeowners could have had their mortgages paid off. Instead we have 25%-30% APR credit cards, the GDP and dollar are dropping and unemployment continues to rise at alarming rates. Don't even get me started! :00000060: As it relates to garden tractors, I don't have the historic prices handy but it is very likely that once adjusted for inflation the old prices for top of the line equipment matched or exceeded current prices for current top of the line equipment.

To tell you the truth if I was going to drop $5,000 on a garden tractor I'd go whole hog and buy an SCUT instead. In fact there's a nice looking Kubota with an FEL that I pass by whenever I go into town. Maybe someday. All I can tell you is that tomorrow I get to fire up my DGS6500 and see how she does out on my field. :bannana:

 

[davidg]

my biggest complaint with Deere LA series is that if JD wants to compete with MTD/Craftsman/AYP/Husq/whoever, they need to price their units closer in line with those others. the quality is about the same, so OTHER than the name there is no real reason to pay an extra 500-1000.00 for a LA series that basically can just cut grass. sure, plenty of folks pay that premium for the JD name and think they are really getting soemthing. for Suburbanites they are. for acreage owners, they are not.

i bought a L130 the first time around, and last year got teh X500. if i ever have to buy a low end machine again, i will compare quality of machine and shop on that and price. but honestly, unless i have no other choice i will go with a dealer only line from whatever manufacturer i choose.

the only nice thing about my L130 tearing up all the time is tha tthe parts are rarely very expensive and are in my hands within 48 hours usually, if not sooner. i cannot say that for others, but i have little experience with them either.

 

[carpevita]

:Stop: This thread scares me a little.... If I understand you correctly, the top of the line Sears Craftsman has the same frame build as the bottom of the line JD?!?!?!

 

[Mowin' Man]

BullShark,

Excellent thread. :congrats:

I bought my YT 4500 earlier this month after comparing it against the JD LA 175. Very comparable machines but, I just could not justify spending $ 700 more for the JD.

Seven hundred dollars is a lot of money.

my biggest complaint with Deere LA series is that if JD wants to compete with MTD/Craftsman/AYP/Husq/whoever, they need to price their units closer in line with those others. the quality is about the same, so OTHER than the name there is no real reason to pay an extra 500-1000.00 for a LA series that basically can just cut grass. sure, plenty of folks pay that premium for the JD name and think they are really getting soemthing. for Suburbanites they are. for acreage owners, they are not.

Well said davidg, exactly why I bought a Craftsman.

Mowin' Man :trink39:

 

[c1tobor]

In comparing them on JD's site, the only difference I could see (other than the nicer trans.) was that JD has a full length "welded" frame to the "bolted" frame on the Craftsman....

 

[rattosh51]

"Craftsman has a Tuff Torq K 66Y"
The tranny is the big tip off to the Craftsman in this comparison. I'd go with the better tranny any day.

 

[camajimmy1]

i too see your statement about the j.d.s at lowes, anything you buy at those type of stores isnt going to be the same quality you would expect from the same name at a dealer. i would buy j.d. all day but not from lowes or home depot, to tell you the truth (comparing older equipment) j.d. is so much eaiser to work on. a friend of mine has and older craftsman riding mower that wouldnt start. i took it home and found some mice had eaten the ignition wires but the mess of screws and interlocking panels sucked. where as i just removed, rebuilt, and reinstalled a transaxle on a 30 year old j.d. 214 in under 3 hours. today in just over an hour i put an engine for a j.d. lx172 back together from a bare block and back on the tractor. all thats left is pulleys and small stuff. the j.d. tractors are put together with the tought of people being able to work on them for the next 20 years hence that 30 year old 214 with me having done its first tranny rebuild. we have at work 3 j.d. and 1 craftsman somebody forgot to put away during the winter all sitting next to each other. guess which 3 worked first try this spring and which one i still need to fix. i dont mean to sound like im preaching or bad mouthing craftsman. craftsman has good stuff too, its what i use to work on the j.d.s with...

 

[Brett-JDX748]

One could also say that "New JD's" aren't "Old JD's" as far as Garden Tractors go. I had a Deere 425 and traded it in with 1380 hours on the original Kaw V Twin and got 6K trade in (Had a cab, snow blower, blade, 54" deck and was exceptional). It was a **** of a machine no doubt, but what did that machine cost new back in 97? A **** of a lot more than I just paid for my GT5000! It was certainly also, more machine.

I don't know about the new X machines, I've never spent a great deal of time checking them over.

 

[BullShark]

In comparing them on JD's site, the only difference I could see (other than the nicer trans.) was that JD has a full length "welded" frame to the "bolted" frame on the Craftsman....

Interestingly enough I haven't really noticed much of a difference. The construction of the two frames are very similar and seem to only differ on small points like the positioning of bolts and access cutouts like I had mentioned. As far as I could tell from casual observation the Craftsman is welded in all the same places the John Deere is and the Deere definitely has a few bolted together parts too. It may be a different story with the more expensive Deere machines but in this price bracket they look to be very close.

To tell you the truth I'm not even sure I'd want a fully welded frame. I'm pretty good with a stick welder and I know what a weld can and should look like. You just don't see even halfway decent welds on the vast majority of manufactured goods no matter who makes the product and I don't trust most of the tacks passing as welds these days not to snap if given a hard enough shock. It's a lot more difficult to monkey up a bolt even though it may not be quite as rigid as a weld could be in theory.

I was at Sears yesterday and noticed that while very similar, the frame of the Craftsman 4500 series lawn tractor has a smaller bottom edge to the c channel frame than the 6500 does so it isn't actually the same frame.

 

[BullShark]

"Craftsman has a Tuff Torq K 66Y"
The tranny is the big tip off to the Craftsman in this comparison. I'd go with the better tranny any day.

Yeah, that seems to be the long and short of it. For the price you can either get a good lawn tractor or a decent entry level garden tractor. The DGS 6500 might not be all the machine a tractor costing two, three or four times the price is but it's still a more capable machine than any lawn tractor. For my money I'll take the garden tractor every time.