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Hi Folks,

Reading the recent post from swami7774 on Briggs vs Kohler revealed a lot of really great info on engine lubrication. Many thanks to all that contributed.

What I'm wondering is "back in the day" when riding mowers/tractors weren't as overpowered as they are today how did the "slinger" types hold up on sidehill and other rough terrain use? I admit to having them then with no problems, but was mowing nice level lawns, no steep slopes to deal with.

"Popular knowledge" today indicates that if you're going to be on steep slopes you should have an engine with an oil filter indicating pressure lubrication.

Anyone recall having engine failures due to lack of lubrication on steep slopes, etc. with the engines which used "slinger" type lubrication?

Thanks for your time,

Ev
 

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It kind of goes back to early aircraft engines. At one time in early aircraft everytime they landed they needed to lube the engines. Linburg's engine had slelf oilers on top of the the cylinders that kept them lubed and thus he could make the 36 hour flight.
 

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I think most of the failures were from lack of oil and maintenance. The thing is with these overhead cam motors today, they need pressure lubrication to at least the top end. You can't "sling" oil to an OHC motor, you can sling the bottom end, but the top still needs pressure.

I know with my Honda EU2000i generator (slinger) they say not to have it tilted at all as it can cause oil starvation and engine failure.
 

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You know I can not remember a single time I had oiling problems from a slinger type engine. Back in my early days that was all we had and they seemed to hold up quite well.
 

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I don't know if pressure lube would make much difference if you angle an engine enough to pull the oil away from the pickup. IMO, the splash system might even have an advantage under those conditions in that the splash pickup might still hit the oil somewhere in the arc of the crank/rod bearing.

One exception would be a dry sump pressure system where the oil is kept in a tank and the pickup just gathers oil to replenish the tank which in turn feeds the pressure system. Not gonna find that on a LT/GT that I know of though.

The only personal experience I have with operating splash systems at extreme angles would be with lawnmowers and I've never had an oil related failure with one of those.
 

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One thing you have to watch for on slingers is too much oil. On extreme slopes, the crank splashes too much, working the oil up into a foam that then goes out the crackcase vent into the breather.

Pressure lubed engines don't need to run the oil level so close to the crank so they can tolerate more slope. 2 cycle oil/gas mix is best for extreme slopes.
 

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How do the slinging type put oil between the crank and block or in between the crank and rods. I always thought this required a high pressure "hydrodynamic wedge" to seperate the metal surfaces as the old Castrol commercials used to say.
 

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""Popular knowledge" today indicates that if you're going to be on steep slopes you should have an engine with an oil filter indicating pressure lubrication."

Well the "Popular Knowledge" is properly in quotes. As very few B&S engines are actually pressure lubricated even though a filter is present and this includes the ELS line.

"Anyone recall having engine failures due to lack of lubrication on steep slopes, etc. with the engines which used "slinger" type lubrication?"

No.

"they need pressure lubrication to at least the top end. You can't "sling" oil to an OHC motor, you can sling the bottom end, but the top still needs pressure"

This is not so as I stated above, very few B&S engines have pressure lubrication and this includes OHV engines, I am not familiar with OHC engines.

"I don't know if pressure lube would make much difference if you angle an engine enough to pull the oil away from the pickup."

You are right. Slinger equipped B&S engines provide oil in such velocity and volume that gravity has no affect on it in that short a distance at operating speeds also, oil pump equipped B&S engines pick up oil from a "well" which is higher off the base of the sump than the pick up point of slinger straight slinger equipped engines.

Walt Conner
 

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As Walt said, an OHV engine does not necessarily mean it will be pressure lubed. The mention that OHV engines are pressure lubed at the top was WRT particular models as noted in this post.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showpost.php?p=135418&postcount=33

As I stated before, slingers need to skim oil off the top so there is a very narrow margin between min and max oil level. As Walt mentioned, the sump would be at the bottom and if no slingers are involved the margin between min and max oil level would be greater.
 

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Over Head Cam (which of course, 90% of consumer lawn engines are not) require pressure lubrication for the camshaft. Slinger systems don't work for OHC.. OHV, you can get by without pressure lubrication since all that needs lubricated is the rocker fulcrums, pushrod sockets and valve stems. Slinger systems are not ideal and pressure lubrication is a better system.
 

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Slinger systems are quite ideal. They work so well that thousands upon thousand of engines are being produced today that still employ slinger lubrication. In fact, slinger lubed engines outnumber pressure lubed engines by a wide margin.

Neither type of lubrication method will compensate for poor maintenance and both types are subject to failure. Sometimes the "dipper" or slinger will fatigue and break off spelling the end for the engine. Oil pumps can also fail and then good-bye pressure-lubed motor.

However, someone needs to tell me how an engine that isn't pressure-lubed by way of an oil pump can have an oil filter on it that actually cleans the oil.

I must be missing something.
 

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"Slinger systems are not ideal and pressure lubrication is a better system."

While this is a logical theory there are many 60 year old Wisconsins, Kohlers and B&s engines with slinger systems still running happily. Doubt that many of the current "pressure system" engines will make it that far.

Walt Conner
 

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However, someone needs to tell me how an engine that isn't pressure-lubed by way of an oil pump can have an oil filter on it that actually cleans the oil.

I must be missing something.
I don't think anyone is claiming that an engine with an oil filter doesn't have a pump. From some of the previous threads that may have started this one, what was mentioned is that the presence of a filter does not assure the absence of a slinger. I mentioned this just so that an engine with oil filter not be presumed to be entirely pressure lubed.

As Walt said, slinger systems, especially on OPE have been around for a long time and have proven themselves over time. They just don't necessarily have the same range of operating angle and they require the oil level to be more closely maintained.
 

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"However, someone needs to tell me how an engine that isn't pressure-lubed by way of an oil pump can have an oil filter on it that actually cleans the oil."

Not sure if this is what you are looking for or not but - - When B&S first introduced filters on their OHV engines there was of course an oil pump also. This oil pump simply picked up the oil from the sump, ran it thru the filter and dumped the oil back out into the sump. Shortly, they started routing the discharged oil to the bottom main only, where it returned to the sump. That way they could say it was "pressurized". Note two things here, the bottom main bearing has never been a problem on B&S engines AND IF the B&S engine is truly pressurized, it will say "fully pressurized", not just "pressurized".

If in doubt, check the IPL for the engine in question, IF it shows the presence of an oil slinger, it is not fully pressurized also, the IPL will show two sumps, one with an oil filter and one without, an obvious tip off.

On the other hand, to the best of my knowledge, all Kohlers that have a filter are fully pressurized. Old Kawas may be fully pressurized and NOT have a filter or may have a filter.

Walt Conner
 

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...the bottom main bearing has never been a problem on B&S engines...
Conrod bearings are far more likely to be the one to go and the easiest way to throw a rod is to lug an engine. The prior thread debating between Kohler and Briggs was in relation to a yard tractor and yard tractors with hydros would not likely lug an engine. A direct drive (standard) on the other hand could transfer enough torque to matter.

To put things back on topic, this thread is more about operating angles and IMHO I would be more comfortable running a fully pressurized lube engine at extreme angles. I've run my Briggs at angles that caused oil to be sent up to the breather and that does concern me. Just do a search on the words oil in breather to see just how common this problem is.

I worked for many years in heavy construction and have seen equipment run at some pretty wicked angles. I've seen an engine smoke and then quit when the oil foamed up so much that the hydraulic lifters went spongy and the engine would just spin as if it had no compression. The mechanic was ready to write it off as blown but I convinced him to just let it sit for a day to settle out the oil.
 

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"Slinger systems are not ideal and pressure lubrication is a better system."

While this is a logical theory there are many 60 year old Wisconsins, Kohlers and B&s engines with slinger systems still running happily. Doubt that many of the current "pressure system" engines will make it that far.

Walt Conner

Not saying there aren't slinger engines that have not endured, and not saying that slingers don't work.. Just stating that full pressure lubrication is a better setup as you are pressure feeding all the bearings (in a full system) and feeding anything else that needs a high volume of steady oil flow. If the slinger setup was state of the art, it's what our vehicles would use, since it is a cheaper to manufacture system. Pressurized, filtered lubrication is the better way, but not always cost effective especially in these small engines.
 

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Conrod bearings are far more likely to be the one to go...
I worked for many years in heavy construction...
The rattle I often heard when operators lugged the equipment always grated on my ears like fingernails on a chalkboard. I've seen motors blow and driveshafts twist off.

Then when diesel pickups became popular so too did the "Love that rattle" bumper stickers. I wonder how many of them deliberately lugged their engine to hear the rattle they loved so much?
 

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Not saying there aren't slinger engines that have not endured, and not saying that slingers don't work.. Just stating that full pressure lubrication is a better setup as you are pressure feeding all the bearings (in a full system) and feeding anything else that needs a high volume of steady oil flow. If the slinger setup was state of the art, it's what our vehicles would use, since it is a cheaper to manufacture system. Pressurized, filtered lubrication is the better way, but not always cost effective especially in these small engines.
I understand what you're saying and essentially don't disagree with the premise. However......the Kohler K and M engines are both splash-lubed motors that have a time-tested record of amazing longevity but these are mostly single cylinder engines. They are also a very simple design since they are a valve in block engine. All that's needed on most parts is an oil mist. The vital parts get a constant drenching and in spite of no rod bearing inserts, it is not unusual to get more than 2 thousand hours out of a well -maintained K or M single.

To me, the biggest thing that pressure lubrication brings to the table is a full-flow oil filter. Other than that, I'm pretty ambivolent about pressure lube.
 

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While some may feel more comfortable running a fully pressurized lube engine at extreme angles, there is no basis for it unless you are idling a slinger lubed engine at extreme angles. I won't repeat why as I have twice already.

Walt Conner
 

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Conrod bearings are far more likely to be the one to go and the easiest way to throw a rod is to lug an engine. The prior thread debating between Kohler and Briggs was in relation to a yard tractor and yard tractors with hydros would not likely lug an engine. A direct drive (standard) on the other hand could transfer enough torque to matter.

To put things back on topic, this thread is more about operating angles and IMHO I would be more comfortable running a fully pressurized lube engine at extreme angles. I've run my Briggs at angles that caused oil to be sent up to the breather and that does concern me. Just do a search on the words oil in breather to see just how common this problem is.

I worked for many years in heavy construction and have seen equipment run at some pretty wicked angles. I've seen an engine smoke and then quit when the oil foamed up so much that the hydraulic lifters went spongy and the engine would just spin as if it had no compression. The mechanic was ready to write it off as blown but I convinced him to just let it sit for a day to settle out the oil.

I disagree... I like the old stuff and I only run my engine 1/4 to 1/2 throttle... The new junk today needs to run full throttle to keep the tyranny cool... I always put a little extra oil in my engines when running on a hard angle and it's worked fine for me for many years...
 
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