[blueberrymuzik]

I have an Oliver 1365 that suddenly lost all oil pressure while building a brush pile. When I started it that morning, the pressure was normal- about 40 lbs. While pushing brush, I heard a slight "clink" from somewhere up front, but dismissed it a loader noise. A few minutes later, I could smell hot oil. Checked my gauges and found no oil pressure. Shut it off, checked the oil level and found it normal. Looked for any outward signs of problems and found nothing. Restarted the engine just long enough to verify the total loss of pressure, then shut it down. When I towed it into the shop and dropped the oil pan, I found an 8mm bolt about 1 1/2" long lying in the bottom of the pan. It was bent at a 90 degree angle and part of the head was missing on one side. My conclusion was that it must belong in a hole that goes back into an oil galley, and it being out is allowing the oil to "free flow" without building any pressure. I've removed and inspected the oil pump and found nothing wrong . I've pulled the vibration damper down from the engine and found nothing wrong. So far, I can't find a hole where it belongs.

From lying underneath the engine looking up, I can see that the main oil galley appears to run right beside the camshaft. My only remaining theory is that this bolt may belong in the cam retainer plate and it's mounting hole is drilled back into the the oil galley.

Does anyone have any experience with one of these Fiat engines? Or does anyone have a engine out of a tractor that they could look at and see where this bolt could have possibly come from?

In order for me to get into the timing cover on this one is major surgery.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Holy350]

Just curious, did you solve the problem? I have a 1365 and had the same thing happen to me over the summer. Lost all oil pressure. I have not had anytime to do any investigating though. Tractor is just sitting up by the barn until I have time to mess around with it.

 

[blueberrymuzik]

Yes, it took me quite a long time and a lot of searching to find it, but it is fixed.
Here is what I found-
The loss of pressure was in the oil pump. I disassembled it several times and missed the problem every time. There were several shards of metal in the pressure regulator on the oil pump.They came from the bolt that came loose and got into the timing gears.

If you would like, when you are ready to start working on the problem, I can offer the benefit of my experience. I've learned that if you disassemble things in a certain order, it is about 10 times easier. I hope that I can save you from having to go through the same learning curve that I did.

What do you have for a service manual for your Oliver? I started out with the only one that I knew about. It was originally published by Oliver- it is pretty incomplete. During all of my searching for information, I found the original Fiat Factory Service Manual in England. It has about 10 times the amount of info that is in the Oliver book. I was able to download it and have it on my computer. I can share it with you if you need it.


Jim

 

[Holy350]

Glad to hear its running good again. I have a feeling mine isn't going to be as easy of a fix unfortunately. I got it from an auction knowing it needed rubber, 3pt. hitch didn't work, needed paint, gauges, etc. But it purred like a kitten and the hydraulic remote worked. But after 2 months of using it, I was raking hay one day and it just shut off completely. Couldn't get it restarted until it cooled off. Ever since then, its been terrible. It has no oil pressure. About 10psi at full throttle and about 1 at idle. It still runs but has no power. The oil breather smokes white smoke like a steam locomotive. Its been sitting every since. I start it up once a month for about 15 mins to keep everything lubed. I did a compression test on it and all the cylinders are even and high but one cylinder is oil saturated. The oil, diesel, and coolant are crystal clean with no signs of any cross contamination of any fluids. I don't have the money to start working on it. I may make it my spring time project. I will keep you updated!

 

[blueberrymuzik]

These engines have thrust bearings on one of the journals. If they become too worn, they can actually fall down into the pan. When this happens you lose most of your oil pressure. It sounds as if this may be what has happened to your tractor. There is a PTO lever that is located on the left side of the steering wheel. I learned during all of this, that lever needs to remain in the "down" position unless you are disengaging the PTO. The rest of the time that lever must be down and you disengage the PTO by moving the PTO shift lever to the neutral position on the top of the transmission. If the lever on the left of the steering wheel is left in the upright position, it puts excessive load on those thrust bearings and causes them to wear rapidly. During my search for my problems, I talked to a guy in Tennessee who had this happen to him.

 

[Holy350]

WOW! You just boggled my mind. A week prior to all of this happening, I left that PTO lever in the up position. I was driving around the barn, and the tractor started this horrendous squealing and a bit of smoking, and then shut right off. I thought it was the clutch mechanism for that PTO. Its now starting to come together! So, if I did mess up the journals like you say, would that require a complete motor rebuild?

 

[blueberrymuzik]

Don't despair too much before you look into the inside of the engine. Those Fiat engines are as tough as nails. Driving for a week or two with that lever up wouldn't cause enough wear to be a problem. If the thrust bearings are what has failed, they were most likely on the edge when you bought the tractor. My problems were not related to the thrust bearings, but while searching for info, I was told about this potential problem and I checked their condition and found them significantly worn. I had owned this tractor for 3 years and always drove it with the lever up. I think the guy I bought it from did the same thing.

 

[Oliver1370]

Hi blueberrymuzik,

I have an Oliver/White 1370 (Canadian version of the 1365) with the Fiat diesel. It also lost oil pressure recently. I installed a gauge and got no pressure or oil flow up the tube. I pulled the pan and tried to remove the oil pump, but the two pump bolt mounting flanges just make enough contact with the cast sump to not allow it to slide out. Did the pump slide out for you?

 

[blueberrymuzik]

After many attempts, I was finally able to remove my oil pump without taking anything else off, yours may not be possible. I was not having interference problems with the sump, mine was interference with the Vibration Damper case. I did wind up pulling the vibration damper out of the engine, and once I did, the oil pump was easily removed and installed. My loss of oil pressure was due to a shard of metal that had been picked up by the oil pump and was lodged in the Pressure Regulator Valve located on the oil pump. That shard was holding the regulator wide open allowing all of my pressure to bleed off. After much more disassembly, I found that a bolt had vibrated out from up in the timing gears area and had been shredded.

Here are some things I learned along the way:
1. Before you take the vibration damper off, put the engine at Top Dead Center. When the engine is in perfect time, you can insert a rod into the timing hole on the Vibration Damper and it will drop in about an extra inch. This makes it very easy to put it back in time during assembly.
2. Use a floor jack to raise and lower the vibration damper into position. It is too heavy to try to do by brute strength.
3. After days of diligent searching, I was finally able to find Fiat's original service manual for the tractor. It is in english and has about 5 times as much info as the Oliver Service Manual. It is in .pdf format and I have it residing on my Google Drive. If you would like to download it, just send me a pm and I will send you the link.
4. I found the prices for the gaskets on the engine to be outrageous. I went down to my local auto parts store and purchased enough gasket material to make everything I needed and saved about $250.
5. I highly recommend some form of thread locker for the bolts when you reassemble. I used Loctite.

I found that I was unable to locate almost no one in North America who had any experience with this engine. I'm not an expert, but have had some very extensive "hands on" with my engine within the past year and will share anything I learned.

IMPORTANT-I Learned while going through all of this that it is not uncommon for the thrust bearings to become so worn that they will literally "fall out" into the oil pan. If that happens, you lose all oil pressure. Mine were somewhat worn, but not enough to fall out. The extreme wear is caused by running the tractor with the PTO Lever in the "Up" position all of the time. This causes the PTO Clutch to keep pressure applied to the rear of the crankshaft pushing it forward at all times and causes the thrust bearings to wear. Apparently the proper operating procedure is to keep the PTO Gear lever to disengaged when not using the PTO, and keep the lever "Down".

 

[Oliver1370]

Thanks for all that info blueberrymuzik. I would be interested in the manual and will pm you.

Hmm, you've got me thinking as to whether I saw the real problem of the oil pump not being able to slide out. I'm pretty sure I saw what I saw with the interference on the sump side wall and thought it silly they would design it so. The pan was surprisingly clean and no signs of bearing pieces. I opened the oil filter as well and all looked good. I thought for sure I'd see signs of bronze or the like. I plan to drain and pull the pan and will have a look at it again.

I did pull the bottom off the oil pump and was able to inspect the pressure relief valve for shards or other non-op events, but all was good there. I measured all I could and everything is at minimum, so its about at the end of its service life.

Thanks again and PM inbound.

 

[blueberrymuzik]

On mine, you cannot see the pressure relief vale from the bottom- it is large bolt that is removed from the side of the pump.

 

[Oliver1370]

The pressure relief valve is on the side on mine too. Looks like this pump here only rotate the assembly 90º CW. http://stores.ricksagparts.com/oil-pump-30-3049426-72089640-72091632/ I'll post up a pic when I get back into it.

Also, that is the company I have been using for parts.

 

[blueberrymuzik]

That pump looks exactly like mine. Rick's is a great place to buy parts. I bought a clutch from him a couple of years ago.

 

[Oliver1370]

blueberrymuzik, thanks for your input and manual.

My situation was simply a worn out pump as specs were at minimum with some unusual wear. Toughest part was getting the old pump out without doing the the manual recommended front end removal to get the sump off. Worked a short cut and got the old pump out and the new one in. Checked the crank bearings and thrust washers while in there and all looked good. Full spec pressure reading on the gauge.

Back to work. :Tractor2:

 

[blueberrymuzik]

CONGRATULATIONS! You got it!


Jim

 

[Oliver1370]

Thanks.

 

[gburnett]

I have a 1365 4WD that the thrust washers had fallen into the pan does the engine have to be torn down to replace these?

 

[blueberrymuzik]

No, it does not. You can replace them by removing the oil pan (which you obviously have already done) then "rolling" them into position. I'm not certain if you need to remove the vibration damper in order to do this, but I suspect that you will. If so, you need to get the timing mark aligned at TDC before you begin. You will find it is actually marked "PMS" which apparently Italian for TDC. get your self a 1/4" rod about 4" or so long. There is an alignment hole on the bottom of the vibration damper. You need to use a pry bar to move the flywheel back and forth until the rod drops into place in the vibration damper. At this point, the engine is in perfect time with the damper. This will make sure that when you put it back together you will be able to have the exact same timing. Take a floor jack and raise it into position beneath the damper. Unbolt the damper and lower it and move it out of the way. Take your PTO clucth lever and lower it down. This unloads the thrust pressure off the crankshaft and will allow you instal the thrust washers. When you purchase the washers- there are 2 thicknesses. Get the thicker ones. If you have any problems or questions as you get into this, just let me know.

 

[blueberrymuzik]

If you need the original Fiat Service Manual for the tractor, just let me know.

 

[gburnett]

Thanks for the advice there is an AGCO dealer over at Dayton VA that's very familiar with Olivers I may get them to do the work especially since It doesn't look like its too involved.I've had this tractor for awhile its in really good shape except it'd loose oil pressure after it ran a few minutes and when we pulled the pan off the washers were in the bottom.I have a White 2-70 that needs some transmission work so I'll be talking to them anyway.The 1365 is a really good model I have a 2WD with a loader on it and its been very dependable.If you have a service manual for sale I'd be interested.