Oliver 1365 No oil Pressure! Taken apart, and...
Hello, and thanks for tuning in!
I have a bit of a riddle here. My 1365 shows no oil pressure. I checked the pressure gauge and it's working fine. The tube in the engine sidewall is clear and blows through just fine. I took the drip pan off... clean as can be other than two very very small pebbles (don't ask me... I've only had it 2 years and that wasnt me!). No metal, etc. I removed the pump inlet pipe/screen... it's clean and easy to blow through. Removed the oil pump bypass valve while the pump was still installed... it looks good and functions fine by hand. Tried to remove the pump but mine simply doesn't have the clearance, so instead of removing it I decided to take the bottom off and inspect the gears... They look great. I can move the pump up and down about an inch and when I do the drive gear turns as you would expect it to based on the design of the driving gear at the top of the pump (helix shaped) so it seems to be engage just fine on the crank shaft.
Who can tell me what my problem is likely to be?? I have found zero metal or unusual wear. My oil pressure light on my dash/console is also staying on so I have both the light and the gauge indicating zero pressure. This problem seems to have started between uses... I had used it a few days before without issue, the next time I started it up the pressure light would not turn off as it usually does... this makes it all the more confusing! No weird noises, no weird smells, nothing.
Thanks all!!!
I have a bit of a riddle here. My 1365 shows no oil pressure. I checked the pressure gauge and it's working fine. The tube in the engine sidewall is clear and blows through just fine. I took the drip pan off... clean as can be other than two very very small pebbles (don't ask me... I've only had it 2 years and that wasnt me!). No metal, etc. I removed the pump inlet pipe/screen... it's clean and easy to blow through. Removed the oil pump bypass valve while the pump was still installed... it looks good and functions fine by hand. Tried to remove the pump but mine simply doesn't have the clearance, so instead of removing it I decided to take the bottom off and inspect the gears... They look great. I can move the pump up and down about an inch and when I do the drive gear turns as you would expect it to based on the design of the driving gear at the top of the pump (helix shaped) so it seems to be engage just fine on the crank shaft.
Who can tell me what my problem is likely to be?? I have found zero metal or unusual wear. My oil pressure light on my dash/console is also staying on so I have both the light and the gauge indicating zero pressure. This problem seems to have started between uses... I had used it a few days before without issue, the next time I started it up the pressure light would not turn off as it usually does... this makes it all the more confusing! No weird noises, no weird smells, nothing.
Thanks all!!!
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Well, seem to have figured it out and have some useful info for the next person;
It turns out there's two different manuals for this tractor. The shorter of the two is unfortunately what's commonly for sale out there, while the more comprehensive (and more accurate) of the two is much harder to find. I was fortunate to run into a saint on this forum who helped me acquire the better of the two at no charge. That said; if you need a copy of the better manual in pdf format PM me as I'd like to pass that favor on to the next guy.
The commonly available manual has a diagram of the oil system that incorrectly shows what SHOULD BE the oil pressure switch after the filter (which is what controls the pressure warning light) and calls it the "Lube oil pressure regulating valve". Wrong! The pressure regulating valve is in the pump itself but is only labeled in the manual as "valve" which leaves you wondering what that one does.
Anyway, once that error was noticed in the manual it all started to make sense... my filter was not letting oil through for some reason and the pressure switch is after the filter (which makes sense otherwise you'd never know if your filter was clogged). I don't know if the filter anti drain-back valve malfunctioned or what, but it wasn't letting any oil through. In addition, I recommend you use a full flow filter for this tractor as the manual recommends... I replaced the faulty filter with a ph977a (a is for agriculture). If the problem reoccurs I will move to a lighter weight synthetic oil, but will update here accordingly.
Note that the 1365 has a bypass system built in that will allow oil to bypass the filter if pressure is lost after the filter as a safety system. Also, the oil pump in this thing is so simple and well designed that it's practically bullet proof... I'd argue that most oil pressure issues are likely to be something other than the pump itself, though it's possible that the pressure bypass valve in the pump could malfunction or get stuck open (spring activated). This valve can be removed and checked without removing the pump itself. Priming the pump is not needed if you've taken it apart, though for good measure I did pour oil down the filter inlet after putting it all back together.
Another note of interest; JUST ABOUT EVERY LAST BOLT YOU WILL RUN INTO IS 13mm! Thank you 1960's engineering from Italy! Apparently common sense was at a premium before the computer drafting days made things easy and in turn more complicated! The bypass valve on the pump comes off with a 1 1/16" inch wrench. Torque spec on the four bolts on the bottom of the pump is 15 ft/lbs. I did not run into any other torque specs.
Hope that helps somebody and thank you JIM!
It turns out there's two different manuals for this tractor. The shorter of the two is unfortunately what's commonly for sale out there, while the more comprehensive (and more accurate) of the two is much harder to find. I was fortunate to run into a saint on this forum who helped me acquire the better of the two at no charge. That said; if you need a copy of the better manual in pdf format PM me as I'd like to pass that favor on to the next guy.
The commonly available manual has a diagram of the oil system that incorrectly shows what SHOULD BE the oil pressure switch after the filter (which is what controls the pressure warning light) and calls it the "Lube oil pressure regulating valve". Wrong! The pressure regulating valve is in the pump itself but is only labeled in the manual as "valve" which leaves you wondering what that one does.
Anyway, once that error was noticed in the manual it all started to make sense... my filter was not letting oil through for some reason and the pressure switch is after the filter (which makes sense otherwise you'd never know if your filter was clogged). I don't know if the filter anti drain-back valve malfunctioned or what, but it wasn't letting any oil through. In addition, I recommend you use a full flow filter for this tractor as the manual recommends... I replaced the faulty filter with a ph977a (a is for agriculture). If the problem reoccurs I will move to a lighter weight synthetic oil, but will update here accordingly.
Note that the 1365 has a bypass system built in that will allow oil to bypass the filter if pressure is lost after the filter as a safety system. Also, the oil pump in this thing is so simple and well designed that it's practically bullet proof... I'd argue that most oil pressure issues are likely to be something other than the pump itself, though it's possible that the pressure bypass valve in the pump could malfunction or get stuck open (spring activated). This valve can be removed and checked without removing the pump itself. Priming the pump is not needed if you've taken it apart, though for good measure I did pour oil down the filter inlet after putting it all back together.
Another note of interest; JUST ABOUT EVERY LAST BOLT YOU WILL RUN INTO IS 13mm! Thank you 1960's engineering from Italy! Apparently common sense was at a premium before the computer drafting days made things easy and in turn more complicated! The bypass valve on the pump comes off with a 1 1/16" inch wrench. Torque spec on the four bolts on the bottom of the pump is 15 ft/lbs. I did not run into any other torque specs.
Hope that helps somebody and thank you JIM!
Glad you got it figured out, good deal!
Jim, :ditto: on figuring it out. And thanks for taking the time to do the detailed write-up on what you found. That is bound to help someone else down the road when, of if, they get the same problem. It can be extremely frustrating to search for a solution to a problem on any forum, find the same situation with a number of suggestions, and not find any response about a resolution. :thanku:
MikeC
MikeC
Dave really did a very thorough job of documenting what he found on the tractor. He is correct- the commonly used Oliver publication is incorrect as to how the oil system works. The original Fiat manual is correct and very informative. If someone is planning to dive into a 1365 engine, I highly recommend getting your hands on the Fiat Service Manual.
I have the FIAT 480 500 540 580 640 DT Workshop Service Manual since my white is the same as a 500 FIAT is that the good manual? The only White manual I have is the operator's manual which is no big deal.
Yes, the Fiat Workshop Service Manual is the good one. I have both the Fiat and the Oliver service manuals. In comparing the two, it becomes pretty obvious that Oliver took the Fiat documentation and edited it heavily- they omitted a lot of very necessary information and also inserted some changes that are just plain wrong.
Does anyone have the pdf FIAT service manual that Jim (blueberyymusik) referred to?
I have have a White 1370/Oliver1365 with about 2600 hours. About a month ago I started in up and was idling for about 5 minutes when it lugged down and stalled. It wouldn't start back up until it completely cooled off. My suspicion was that I spun a bearing.
This weekend I dug into it. I cut the oil filter apart and it was clean. I installed a new filter, but removed a plug from the oil gallery to see if I had oil flow. I fired the engine up, and my suspicion was confirmed. No flow (NONE) to the oil gallery, and upon inspection the oil filter was still completely dry. While tearing things down, I found that mice had chewed through the wire to the oil light.
This is freighting to me. I pulled the pump down, and can't find a thing wrong with it. The gears show very minimal wear. The pressure relief bypass looks functional with no debris. The piston floats freely and the spring is in tact. Using a drill and a bucket of oil, it pumps oil fine. I really think the pump just lost prime. Which is an awful reason to wreck an engine.
Right now, I know I've burned up the #4 main bearing. It didn't spin in the block, but it did some damage to the crank so I'm tearing it down to see what if anything else is damaged.
Before I put this thing back together, I'd like to make sure I have found the problem, and won't loose oil flow again.
Does anyone have the pdf Fiat service manual that Jim (blueberyymusik) refered to? I'm hoping it will lead me to something I missed.
I have have a White 1370/Oliver1365 with about 2600 hours. About a month ago I started in up and was idling for about 5 minutes when it lugged down and stalled. It wouldn't start back up until it completely cooled off. My suspicion was that I spun a bearing.
This weekend I dug into it. I cut the oil filter apart and it was clean. I installed a new filter, but removed a plug from the oil gallery to see if I had oil flow. I fired the engine up, and my suspicion was confirmed. No flow (NONE) to the oil gallery, and upon inspection the oil filter was still completely dry. While tearing things down, I found that mice had chewed through the wire to the oil light.
This is freighting to me. I pulled the pump down, and can't find a thing wrong with it. The gears show very minimal wear. The pressure relief bypass looks functional with no debris. The piston floats freely and the spring is in tact. Using a drill and a bucket of oil, it pumps oil fine. I really think the pump just lost prime. Which is an awful reason to wreck an engine.
Right now, I know I've burned up the #4 main bearing. It didn't spin in the block, but it did some damage to the crank so I'm tearing it down to see what if anything else is damaged.
Before I put this thing back together, I'd like to make sure I have found the problem, and won't loose oil flow again.
Does anyone have the pdf Fiat service manual that Jim (blueberyymusik) refered to? I'm hoping it will lead me to something I missed.
Looking for a copy of that good Fiat manual also.. any file to share? Marty
I would love to get my hands on the Fiat manual or even just the section on oil pumps. My Oliver manual for the 1365 says I need to take the front end off the tractor. I have changed them in my truck and car before by dropping the oil pan only
...4 year old thread, and the main participants haven't logged into the site in a year or more. You probably won't get a response from them.
I would not expect a full size tractor to be repaired the same way as a car/truck, particularly an older tractor. From looking at some pics of an Oliver 1365, it looks like the engine is used as part of the frame, that is likely why the manual indicates you need take off the front end of the tractor.
I would not expect a full size tractor to be repaired the same way as a car/truck, particularly an older tractor. From looking at some pics of an Oliver 1365, it looks like the engine is used as part of the frame, that is likely why the manual indicates you need take off the front end of the tractor.
What was the brand of the filter that failed?
Not to be discouraging here but I have heard that PH filters stands for "Probable Heartbreak".
Not to be discouraging here but I have heard that PH filters stands for "Probable Heartbreak".
For those looking for the manual,you could try messaging the OP. Click on his avatar and you will see a link for Start Conversation in middle of the screen. Even though he hasn't logged on the system system sends a notification to his email address that he registered with. If he hasn't changed his email address he will see it and possibly get back to you. And if some one gets one, think of the others on here in the same boat and possibly pay it forward to another. Hope this helps.
MikeC
MikeC
Could you send me the pdf manual I would love to have it to repair my Oliver. Thank you
my email [email protected]
my email [email protected]
Do you have the Manual ? I would like to have it if you could send it to me at [email protected]. I need to repair my Oliver.
Charles, you probably have already done this but you might have some luck doing a google search for Oliver Tractor forums.
There is also a Facebook group but you would have to sign up to see or ask questions. Here's the link Oliver/White Tractor Owners/Workers Forum
MikeC
There is also a Facebook group but you would have to sign up to see or ask questions. Here's the link Oliver/White Tractor Owners/Workers Forum
MikeC
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