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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Morning Fellas.

I might get my fingers wrapped for this one, but I'm hoping to be able to discuss a paragraph that comes right out of a CASE HYDRAULIC SYSTEM service manual 9-50881.
I would love to discuss it with some members of the other side, but I am probably not welcome there, so if someone could carry my message, i would be most thankfull.

My question is this one: As most of you guys know, in the very begining of my front end loader build 2 years ago, I encountered a lot of resistance when I concluded that I could use the "lift side of the TCV circuit" to feed my double "open centre" loader valve. On my Case 224.

I have spent a great deal of time and effort explaining the flow and the division of flow in that particular circuit.

I have made a couple of videos of my pushing into a snow bank while actually pulling and pushing with the loader hydraulics and mixing all the flow together.

At that time everything worked 100% in harmonie with each other. I never encountered flow problems, or over taxing system pressure.

But now, I have my answer as to why that is.

I received a private message from a member of both sites, and this is what he sent me.
If this is true, are you fellas reading what I'm reading. THAT CASE ENGINEERS, had intended for the lift circuit of these TCV's to be used for a loader application?

What do you guys read in this "high lighted section of the manual"





Thanks: again I'm sory If I opened another can of Woop Behind.


Jay
 

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It is a very broad and basic statement in the manual. Likely the same guys writing the manuals are writing about Case skid steers and other interesting hydraulic system.


All of the items referenced were in OEM production ... properly configured. The backhoe in most applications is in there basically like any other implement on the rear PTO. Just a big one with excellent mounting structure on a 600 series loader.

The loader/bucket as we well know is there in the 600's with a neatly configured power beyond circuit, feeding the auxiliary requirements, up to and including P/S on the 648's. Later 6000/7000's segregated the drive system from the loader and P/S by using a tandem pump system.


The versatility IS one of the great results of this system ... with real hydraulic horsepower on tap, you can do many many things.


As we all can observe through a variety of owner/fabricator engagements ... the interactions and control results in hydraulics can be quite involved. Hence the evolution of whole industrial segments, engineering, and skilled trades associated with it ...

I say keep on experimenting, but please do it conservatively and safely, within the limits of funds you can afford to put in to such ventures.


Personally I would love to get engaged with some additional hydraulic tools such as those used in bucket trucks (chain saw, loppers, impact wrenches, etc etc). However, I really don't have any need for them. Mostly I think a chain saw with 9-11hp on tap would be cool. But I don't run a line electrical repair or underwater salvage and repair operation ... so I don't pony up for the big bucks on those professional, industrial tools (everyone's favorite good old handtool maker Stanley owns a major segment of that industry).

Now, I am seriously considering converting a 6018 to a quick attach system and bringing aboard some mini-skid steer attachments from Paladin.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks Brian, and JB.

Once again Brian, you are so smooth in your deliveries of statements. i am becoming a fan of yours, but my question revolved more towards the abusive language I seem to have received on other forums about my projects, and the way some individuals have made fun of me.
I know I should let this past experience be, but I can't everytime I encounter a private message asking me to help them with the constructioon or planning constructoion of their personal loaders.

Lets face it, If I could, I'd build as many attachment as I could for my tractor, and that is something I never dreamed I would ever do, growing up on a large Dairy farm.

What makes me boil over like this is the fact, that at my age, I AM scared by people on these open forums who think that their words and actions don't matter.

Let me explain.

Take a perfectly flat piece of white 8 1/2 by 11 paper, and crumble it into a ball in your hands. Now take the ball, and try to make the piece of paper perfect flat looking again.


That should explain it I would hope.

I know some member I am aiming at, are reading these posts of mine.

I'm just not sure i know how to let it go.
 

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LOL, Jayvee I already gave you the answer to that. Sick me on them and watch the sparks fly. I cant stand the negative nancys who get down on anything different from their own stringent view of the world and love chewing them up. If you want I could hack their IP and try to activate the webcam if they have one built in. Then we can get pictures of them crying about how sad their own life is while reading my PM, LOL.
 

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Aside from all that. Any idea what it would take to recreate the power beyond system of the 600 series in a 200 or 400? Mimicking what the Case engineers did with the 600 might be the best answer for loader hydraulics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Aside from all that. Any idea what it would take to recreate the power beyond system of the 600 series in a 200 or 400? Mimicking what the Case engineers did with the 600 might be the best answer for loader hydraulics.
:thanku: for the offer above, I'm sure it won't come to that, but you never know.

As far as the power beyond solution, I understand that there is a possible solution (tangible solution) not just a book smart remark commenting, about converting our original 200/400 series TCV's into a power beyond TCV like the ones used on the 600 series.

I am working on a possible way to install a "Cross" double spool valve/power beyond, in conjunction with flow control on my 224's low flow low pressure to take the place of my TCV.

And I am in a closed discussion with a Fella that will try fitting a tandum pump system in order to deliver 2 sources of non interfering hydraulics.

AS you can see, there is a lot of Buzzing going around the idea of making these tractors Frond End Loader friendlier, and faisable.

Some of us are not so closed minded :thSick:. And in the end, If they are all as stubborn as me, WE will end up with something amazing... :fing32:

Cheers

JayVee43
 

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......
If this is true, are you fellas reading what I'm reading. THAT CASE ENGINEERS, had intended for the lift circuit of these TCV's to be used for a loader application?

What do you guys read in this "high lighted section of the manual"



Thanks: again I'm sory If I opened another can of Woop Behind.


Jay
Jay,

I don't think a can of whoop a$$ has been opened... IMHO. I agree that it does read that these additions can be made to these systems.

I don't read it the way you are interpreting it though. For one... if I'm recalling correctly, when a rear PTO is added, that it goes inline before the TCV as far as the flow. This, in effect, gives it priority over the TCV. That PTO is a high flow/high pressure valve intended for running hydraulic motors (think tillers). However, not for cylinders:Stop:, like lifts and loaders use, and those should use a valving system similar to the lift circuit, since the smaller hose diameters reduce flow and pressure due to the smaller hoses. Otherwise, you may blow out a cylinder:banghead3. This is probably why your set-up worked for your loader.

It says, "The attachment lift, 3-PT hitch and loader bucket hydraulic circuits are also additions to the Basic Tractor Hydraulic Drive System." This tells me only that these types of "additions" can be done on these tractors and hydraulic systems. It doesn't specify where/how they can or should be added to the system.

These manuals, in most cases, are written to be both vague and specific at the same time, so you really can't interpret or imply anything from what is written here, other than the designers say, "ya, it can be done" but to remove themselves from liability, they don't say how it can be done, or for that matter how it shouldn't be done.

I'm not a hydraulics expert by any means, but I have read some on the subject, and my uncle is a certified hydraulics technician and system designer for emergency and mobile service vehicles for over 30 years now. He has taught me a lot since I've gotten my Case. So remember, this is IMHO, not gospel... :thThumbsU

I'm working on a project tractor myself, it will be 4WD, center articulated, diesel. I am still formulating the hydraulics, and I have studied the 3100/4100 series systems with the double pump, where the second pump is dedicated to steering. I'm considering a double pump and then a couple priority valves for controlling the flow to things like the steering, loader, implements and attachment lifts and actuation.
 

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This has been a very good discussion so far and I think everyone's comments have been spot on. Case engineers designed this hydraulic system and it probably requires NO changes from the basic design to run most anything off it that operates within the boundaries of the system flows & pressures. In the case of a loader addition, using the flow/control design of the 600/6000 series is probably the best way to go, even for a power steering ad-on. I guess that means a few more GPM and power beyond is what I see. I've seen a couple of very nice articulation tractors built from this system and it don't get no better than that. If your first flow design worked the best then I would go back to that and move to the next stage of your enhancements. Always remember that Case designed their systems with complete safety in mind and that should always be followed when altering it. I say "Keep the ideas flowing" ....

:trink40:
 

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As Brian said, 600 and 6000 very different hydraulic systems. 6000 has a tandem/dual pump with a 9gpm section to run the travel and pto and a 5.5gpm section to run the backhoe, then steering, then loader. 600 has the power beyond
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
:eek:mg: The fishes are bitting tonight...:beatdeadh

Really, a whole new thread started just for me, you shouldn't have.

Thanks for the suggested answers guys, keep them comming. I know we will get somewhere with these tractors... :thanku:
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ok guys I am still fairly new to the site and I'm not sure I this is on topic or not. I love the idea of adding a loader to my 3018, but the first thing in my mind before the FEL would be power steering. Now to my question, can you simply add a power steering cylinder to a standard 3018 like I have seen on the p/s models. Or is there a different steering shaft and linkage to be changed as well. Also on a different note can a 600/6000 series model valve set up be put in place of the standard model, I have access to a 600 series for parts or really what ever I would want on it. Thanks guys and keep the great info coming
:howdy: Wseternmd,

Although I realy appreciate your question, The guys here might not answer you openly cause you have cut in onto my topic. (no harms done, I'm just trying to get you to a better place to get answers)

If you were to re-post your question in a "new Thread" section of this forum, you'd probably get better result.

On this thread, i specifically took a shot at an old friend, and there has been a lot of eyes looking in and a lot of dogs watching for it to inflate. (it wont) but it's like you are caught in my line of site.

So if you can re-post in a new subject thread, I'd realy appreciate.

BTW: lots of guys will probably come down on you, if you hack a 600 series, just put on a steel helmet, and dig a trench...:hide:

Thanks guy

Jay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I might entertain the idea of having him here as a member. In the meantime, he can continue to tough it out on "The Friendliest Tractor Forum and the Best Place for Tractor Information."

As for the Robin Hood of MTF who feeds JV manuals and information.... feel free to copy the above and PM it to JV.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yah. I got it.

If the members who read this could please stand up and show me how many of yous feel I have been giving bad advice, or better yet, how many feel i am talking down to yous while giving bad advice, (like my nemesis seems to always do) please post here on this thread, I would like to put this to rest once and for all.
I'm afraid i have all the questions, and very little answers at bet of times.

Nobody will chew you up, and I ask admin to please let it flow a little while to see where this is going, as I am sick and tired of this division. i would have never become so defensive all these years ago, if you Tom, would not have been so offensive.

The floor is open.

Thanks

JayVee43
 

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What is this garbage still doing here? Take your squabble and attitude and stow it.

Ya built a loader, your way. It worked well. You changed it, it didn't work. You put it back the way you designed it, and it works well. I'm not sure how many more times you want to go over it.

IMO, your as bad as Tom. Although he did not pull a 'whoa is me' card out of the deck each time.:crybaby:
:thSick:
 
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