[TMM]

Hey all! today i bought a Homelite Zip saw off craigslist. i had been wanting a vintage saw for a while and i finally found one. it needs a little cleaning and maybe a carburetor cleaning, but it's very nice!

however, i was messing around with it, and the starter rope didn't pull back in too easily, so i thought a little oil would help - nope! now it won't engage at all!:banghead3

i cleaned all the oil off of the parts, and i still can't get it to engage again. what should i do? sharpen the little dogs on the starter, maybe? here's what the dogs look like, disengaged and then engaged:

any help?? this saw is nearly running and functioning, it really ****** me off that i messed it up.

also, do i remove the air filter by unscrewing the round cover on the side of the gas tank? (showing in the second picture) i made a spanner wrench to go in the holes, but it isn't budging and i don't want to break the aluminum.

thanks,

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Remove the E clip and make sure all the oil is off the pawls and stuff under there. Dont let the spool lift up at all though.

Put it on and see if by pulling sharply, it doesnt engage? Not a slow pull...a rapid pull.

 

[Fcubman]

Looks it would take a real man to run that thing all day. Nice find, I like old machinery like that! Any idea on its age?
FWIW - I agree with Red. Do the pawls just slip, or don't they even try to come out?

 

[RED-85-Z51]

fwiw, these were made between 58 and 62.

The recoil is fairbanks-morse style, you got to pull em fast to get the pawls to poke out.

Between 70 and 82cc's

6000rpm governed redline

18lbs without bar, bar oil, chain, fuel..

Holds 45oz of gas...

Factory setup was 7/16" pitch chain (rare to find chains).

Likes a Champion J6 plug

 

[Fcubman]

That makes it around 50 years old. Interesting stats - thanks, RED.

 

[TMM]

thanks, i'll try taking off that e clip tomorrow. i was leery of taking that apart because i didn't want to mess it up more than i already did. i tried pulling fast and slow, no contact at all. before i messed with it you didn't need to pull it fast or anything, when you pulled the handle it engaged right away.

the dogs do come out when you pull the cord, but they dont want to grab the starter cup.

i believe the zip is 77cc's and 3.6HP.

thanks
tmm

 

[tomw0]

If you took it apart to lube it up, is it possible you put the dogs in pointing the wrong direction? Never mind on that, I just re-read that you haven't removed the E-clip. I am trying to logic out which way the tip of the dog would be pointing when pushed out to engage the inner of the cup. If you had access to another ... HA!.. you could look at the dogs for comparison. May be that the bend in the dogs is not 'factory' and is limiting the extension such that engagement is not aggressive enough. If they were straight, they'd extend out a bit more. Maybe the tips are just worn too much.
I think I would get a ruler, and measure the extended diameter, and compare that to the diameter of the cup. If they don't extend far enough, there are a few remedies. Weld on some length, and file/grind it to shape, or take out some of the curve.
Does the cup have some worn-away ridges that the dogs could have landed on previously? If so, a dremel may make a bit of difference in re-creating a bit of a ridge.
tom

 

[TMM]

got it! i took apart the dogs and cleaned everything in there two or three times. didn't even look wet with oil! it seems that there are these two rubber/soft plastic washers that, through friction, cause the dogs to extend and engage. i also roughed up the cup with some rough sandpaper.

doesn't look like the best design. most recoils that i've seen have a much more positive ratcheting sort of engagement system, with a starter cup that looks like a big 12-point socket, so the teeth can latch on positively. oh well, everything, however well build, usually has a flaw somewhere!

i'm getting a new fuel filter and air filter since both seem pretty clogged. i'm going to get some non-detergent oil tomorrow (you can't run detergent oil in these, can you?) to mix up some gas for it and see how it runs. put a little marvel oil and seafoam in it, see if it runs well. if not, off comes the carb.

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Just mix it 24:1 with a good modern 2 stroke oil, like Echo Power blend, or Stihl Ultra...

The air filters on alot of these older saws are not available...at all.

The filter is probably not clogged though, they seem to look clogged, shoot it with some carb cleaner, then tap it out...air dry.

 

[TMM]

wouldn't 24:1 be too lean a mix though? the plate on the saw recommends 1/2 pint (1 cup) Homelite oil to 1 gallon gas (16:1 mix), or 3/4 pint (1 1/2 cups) 30-wt oil to 1 gallon gas (10:1 mix).

the reason i want to use 30-wt is because i don't know the difference between modern 2-stroke mix and 2-stroke mix back in the 50's. maybe i'm being paranoid, or maybe stubborn. even in my modern Stihl ms180 i use engine oil mixed with gas instead of that expensive 2-stroke mix.

we'll see on the air filter. maybe i'll have to fabricate something.

as for the fuel filter, i cleaned it with carb cleaner and compressed air, and then i attached it to a fuel line and poured in a little fuel to see how fast it dripped out... which wasn't very fast at all. who knows, maybe that's all it needs, i just don't want to think i have a carb issue when it's just a bad fuel filter.

hopefully in a few days i'll have it going. i'll put up a video of it if i do!

thanks

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

In all honesty...and Im being 100% factual in this...

You can run ANY 2 stroke engine, reagardless of reccomendations, on 50:1 mix of ANY 2 stroke mix that meets or exceeds JASO FD ratings.

Current engine oil offerings are NOT suitable for use in a 2 stroke engine, they increse temperatures, increase carbon deposits, and they offer NO stabilization or anti-settle properties.

However, on the older stuff, people feel more comfortable when there is a stream of oil coming out the exhaust...so I reccommend they mix 24 or 32:1. with a 2 stroke oil.

Fact is, in the 50's and 60's...there was no 2 stroke oil...beyond what McCulloch and them offered which was basically a castor oil, so an SAE30 oil was the chosen oil to suggest.

 

[TMM]

red, not that i don't believe you, but do you have any sources you can cite in regards to your claim? i am not doubting you at all, i am just interested and would like to read a related study or test.

and what you said about 2-stroke oil not existing in the 50's is exactly why i am hesitant to use special mix. the saws were made and used with 30-wt back then, so it seems like that should work now. it seems that engine oil would be a little thicker, and maybe lubricate better than a 2-stroke mix?

i'd love for a two-stroke to run without a stream of oil smoke, but that's just not how they are, especially old ones.

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

Aye, Inever post something like that without proof...

http://www.echo-usa.com/Support-Help/FAQs

Go down to Fuel/Oil mixtures

 

[RED-85-Z51]

A 50:1 ratio with 89 Octane fuel can be used in all ECHO 2-stroke equipment, provided the oil is ISO-L-EGD and JASO M345 FC/FD certified. ISO-L-EGD and JASO M345 FC/FD oil must be used with a mid-grade (89 octane) or premium gasoline in all 1997 and newer engines.

A 50:1 Ratio = 1 US Gal. 89 Octane + 2.6 fl. oz. ECHO POWER BLEND OIL

Echo Power Blend Universal 2-Stroke Oil can be used in all of our 2-cycle air-cooled equipment ever made. You may also use this oil in any other brand of 2-cycle air cooled equipment, but it should always be mixed at the 50:1 ratio whether or not it was a 32:1 or 16:1 etc. machine. This oil is the highest quality 2-cycle oil on the market today. There is no need to have more than 1 tank of fuel for your 2-cycle equipment a

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I know multiple people running it 100:1 on modern saws, trimmers, etc...with Stihl Ultra, Echo PB, and Valvoline synthetic 2 stroke mix.

50:1 is reccomended...32:1 is extra extra safe.

 

[TMM]

hmm, interesting. it just kind of seems like i'm asking to seize up my motor with that drastic of a change in the gas/oil ratio. i'll see what i feel like buying tomorrow and i'll mix up some gas with some MMO and seafoam in it, and i'll see how it runs.

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

I honestly wouldnt run sea-foam unless you are going to mix it "correctly"...as seafoam doesnt really have lubrication properties, like oil does.

Back in the day...they didnt have these synthetic blends, high quality fuels, pure oil bases, etc..to build off of.

50:1 is what they say is safe..40:1 is out there..32:1 is out there...24:1...etc...

 

[markusedma]

I agree with red %100. I have a late 50 early 60's Eurika mower with a Lauson 2 stroke and it called for 30wt oil to be used. I've been using a 40:1 mix with 2 stroke oil for 8 yrs in it now and have had nothing happen.

 

[TMM]

i just added the seafoam independent of the oil/gas ratio. i didn't include the seafoam as part of the oil, because i know it doesn't have any lubricity qualities.

i mixed up some gas with 30-wt like the plate on the saw says. i got a new fuel filter today, so we'll see how this baby runs.

tmm

 

[RED-85-Z51]

You arent doing it any favors...but its your saw....run it as you will.