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Discussion Starter #61
Fully assembled now excluding cover bolts/oil. Tires are 27s. The straight edge in picture is 24". Still need to buy a hydraulic motor for it and figure out how to couple it to the pinion shaft.
I might hold off on hydrostat conversion for a bit and focus on power steering.
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There are several things about your project that caught my eye, I'll keep it to the 2 I've been entertaining as of recent, I've had a similar build, though not with FEL, and those requirements.

1) The Titan 3-point post hole digger, is crazy cool. I've looked at these (TSC) but I don't have experience with them. I have questions.

When operating this attachment with such a short wheel base, does it operate without moving the tractor around? or what kind of weight is required on the front end? or ??

I've also wondered how straight this attachment will dig, can a precise hole be dug with one of these?

2) The Ford axle is a brilliant solution for weight and power, plus the availability of parts makes it affordable for long term use. I've entertained all sorts of ideas from differentials I have experience with such as on AWD cars to even mini (the kind in industry) trucks or golf carts.

With modern tractor transaxles in this category tractor, the K92 is the only one that I can see designed to be supported long term, but will be expensive.

An auto differential would be designed for true long term use in mind and mass produced with many options for customizing that is driven by a large SEMA market. It just makes sense.

Having axle shafts custom made is not very difficult because of auto racing and the weight that can be put on that axle is comparatively limitless.

Any thoughts for someone such as myself looking at these options?
 

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Discussion Starter #63
It shakes the tractor a little bit but not enough to be unnerving. I run 3 42lb suitcase weights on the front. Sometimes more would be better so I bought a few more. The issue with additional weight is trying to steer without power steering. In really wet soil I've had the auger pull up the front of the tractor. Also twice I have stuck the auger on a root. Just had to back it off a bit with a pipe wrench.
When digging a hole sometimes it is necessary to pull forward a bit to keep hole straight. Hydrostat would be ideal for this.

The Ford axle was a solution to two problems. The first is that the 3 point capable of lifting 3k plus and I new the stock transmission (1" axles) would break if I wasn't careful. The 8.8 axles are 1.4" at the bearings and don't have all the overhang.

The second issue it solves is converting to hydrostat. My first thought was running 2 hydraulic wheel motors from a single pump. In that scenario you have to choose between speed or torque. The 8.8 has a 4.10 ratio and allows both wheels to be driven by one hyd motor.
With 15 gpm from pump going to a 9.39cu"/rev motor provides 369 rpm at the pinion. 369/4.1= 90 rpm at wheels. With 27" tires works out to 7.22mph.
Motor rated at 358ft/lbs cont. Multiplied by 4.1= 1467.8 ft/lbs at axle.
That's where my thinking is on this project.
If picking a car axle to shorten make sure tube is the same diameter and doesn't taper down. Very hard to align different size tubes.
 

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It shakes the tractor a little bit but not enough to be unnerving. I run 3 42lb suitcase weights on the front. Sometimes more would be better so I bought a few more. The issue with additional weight is trying to steer without power steering. In really wet soil I've had the auger pull up the front of the tractor. Also twice I have stuck the auger on a root. Just had to back it off a bit with a pipe wrench.
When digging a hole sometimes it is necessary to pull forward a bit to keep hole straight. Hydrostat would be ideal for this.

The Ford axle was a solution to two problems. The first is that the 3 point capable of lifting 3k plus and I new the stock transmission (1" axles) would break if I wasn't careful. The 8.8 axles are 1.4" at the bearings and don't have all the overhang.

The second issue it solves is converting to hydrostat. My first thought was running 2 hydraulic wheel motors from a single pump. In that scenario you have to choose between speed or torque. The 8.8 has a 4.10 ratio and allows both wheels to be driven by one hyd motor.
With 15 gpm from pump going to a 9.39cu"/rev motor provides 369 rpm at the pinion. 369/4.1= 90 rpm at wheels. With 27" tires works out to 7.22mph.
Motor rated at 358ft/lbs cont. Multiplied by 4.1= 1467.8 ft/lbs at axle.
That's where my thinking is on this project.
If picking a car axle to shorten make sure tube is the same diameter and doesn't taper down. Very hard to align different size tubes.
This is good input, thank you for taking the time.

That front weight has been a concern of mine when thinking of small tires (footprint) holding that weight, the issue of power steering I admit I've been fighting, but in these weights is perhaps inevitable?

The shutter is interesting and hadn't thought of that, When I look at the machines that are designed to operate those booms, they do have more weight (as you sited) and they have a longer wheel base perhaps to counter torque?

I know ultimately I'll need to find a way to see one of these work in person so I can better analyze it in the real world, but for now it gives me something else to examine.

I have also looked at wheel motors and for now I think they are best suited in a dozer application, though tempting due to ease of design and install.

The differential has been appealing because its like the old way of hydro-static drives in Case and the like with a lot of steal, and a pump that is rebuild-able on the outside, among the things I already mentioned, very simple overall.

I figured my K66 will last approx 10 years total, with oil changes and careful planing. I base the 10 years on 50 hours of average homeowner use per year, so 500 hrs. This is the best estimate I can make after reading purpose, design, intent of the industry with these little light weight units. I'm at half life in 3 years (I have 266 hrs) and I know I need a better plan in the next couple of years so it can be ready to improve. You have given me some numbers to play with also.

I have a 1:1 Borg Warner rear differential for a Volvo V70 XC that I kept for testing on this idea, these are built to handle far more HP and torque than how they were used, my concern with the use in a tractor is having a solid housing over the axles for debris protection and the likes, but I'm in the on paper stage. You have me thinking about gear reduction a little more.

"If picking a car axle to shorten make sure tube is the same diameter and doesn't taper down. Very hard to align different size tubes."

This is another good tip because of all the possible saving of material and smooth integrated design in modern vehicles. The axles do have more horizontal v like taper to the hubs.This is the difference between a simple modification project to a complex engineering project of sorts, I get it.

I have a long way to go still, and you just accomplished it.

Again, nice work.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
It's not done yet but thank you. One thing you might try for front weight is rim guard or calcium in front tires. Might save you 2 suit case weights. Another poster here in Craftsman section did it.
 

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The differential has been appealing because its like the old way of hydro-static drives in Case and the like with a lot of steal, and a pump that is rebuild-able on the outside, among the things I already mentioned, very simple overall.
Case GTs use a hydraulic drive, not hydrostatic.

Hydraulic drive - fixed displacement pump, fixed displacement motor, speed and direction controlled by a valve.

Hydrostatic drive - variable displacement pump, fixed displacement motor, speed and direction controlled by varying the pump displacement. No valve.
 

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Discussion Starter #67
Case GTs use a hydraulic drive, not hydrostatic.

Hydraulic drive - fixed displacement pump, fixed displacement motor, speed and direction controlled by a valve.

Hydrostatic drive - variable displacement pump, fixed displacement motor, speed and direction controlled by varying the pump displacement. No valve.
This is very interesting. I didn't realize such a valve exist. I assumed the old Case units were hydrostat. Doesn't the speed change with load? Also does that valving generate a lot of heat?
Anyway for my application I will be using an Eaton variable displacement pump, think its from a Ford CL20 skid steer.
Thanks for the information.
 

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This is very interesting. I didn't realize such a valve exist. I assumed the old Case units were hydrostat. Doesn't the speed change with load? Also does that valving generate a lot of heat?
Anyway for my application I will be using an Eaton variable displacement pump, think its from a Ford CL20 skid steer.
Thanks for the information.
This is a system sounding like Sunstrand, or Sauer Danfoss, eaton?

I had pulled from here on the Case, Some Case are hydrostat, some are Hi-Drive


This is a good article on hydrostats,


Old Cubs, I think too,

Maybe Tudor is out there, and will want to weigh in on this in detail.

I"ll give you a PDF of what I have on Sunstrand, I know there is more, but this might lead you somewhere new or answer some questions, good stuff.

On the front weight, I've looked at that too, I think an increase in tire width and diameter would make it more useful though, Rim Guard PDF is all I've used on that so far.

Cheers,
 

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It’s not wrong to call a CASE a hydrastat. The word “hydrastatic” was coined to differentiate power transmission through pressure from power transmission through flow, the latter being hydrodynamic. An example of hydrodynamic is the torque converter on your automatic transmission. It’s kinda like the snowblower vs. Snowthrower; really they’re both snowblowers. Valve control doesn’t necessarily mean heat. Think of a FEL; you can feather the controls, but it doesn’t mean you overheat the hydraulics. But, it’s not as efficient as a hydrastat when you run “between gears”.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
Looking at the Sauer Danfoss BDU or light duty series stuff, it is early Hydr-Gear units. Pretty sure Saur Danfoss owns a pretty good stake in HG so this is not surprising. Back in 2004 I worked in OEM warranty evaluation at HG. Got to see a lot of failed units and do teardowns on them. The BDU units use an actual thrust bearings in the swash plate rather than pistons with the swivel end. In high hour units the thrust or input bearings wear out.
That's not why I don't want to use that style.
Those units can't handle the pressure I need. If l recall they're only good for 1100-1200 psi. This is the Eaton 70145 I plan to use. It has a gear pump attached. Still haven't decided if I want to use it. If I use attached gear pump the .277in/rev pump already on the tractor will get reassigned to power steering duty.
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Maybe Tudor is out there, and will want to weigh in on this in detail.
I get my "detailed" information by researching articles such as for which you have provided links, and by picking up snippets of information found in posts made by various members, such as Hydronerd, who have practical experience with specific hydros over the years. It's all available to the membership, but it does take an effort to find some of the specifics.

My practical information has been provided by the Sundstrand Series 15 Inline Type hydro that is in the primary ride that I used for 24 years and for which I have a spare that has served as a learning aid over that time.

In addition, the hydraulic formulae are available online which can be used to calculate various operational data by reverse engineering from the general specs listed for specific hydro transmissions.

My knowledge is general in nature, but I can weasel out specific performance data using manufacturer specs, hydraulic formulae, logic, and my calculator. And of course, my own personal opinions.

Learning that knowledge is a constant process, and it is still ongoing for myself in this field. I don't know it all, but I do have a fairly good handle on what I do know and the confidence that I can learn more.
 

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Looking at the Sauer Danfoss BDU or light duty series stuff, it is early Hydr-Gear units. Pretty sure Saur Danfoss owns a pretty good stake in HG so this is not surprising.
I thought so too, I was examining a concept really, but I think you got that. That Eaton looks nice.

The idea of installing a drive system by their individual components just makes sense to me. I've kept you in mind when I run across a system even small I'll pass it on if interested. One thing I found is this,


Penn-Panzer chassis with diff.png



And this,

Where they discuss using Ford Carrier in an IH Cub Transmission and other OEM's, is the Ford 8 the same as what you are using? They claim the transmission is the most sought after in Garden Tractor competition Pulling, this set up must work well.

It's at this link, and scroll to the bottom of the page. This is one I had in mind that I've seen, just don't know much about it,


A picture of the transmission,

Cub Tran Tuff.png


That's a lot of steel and looks very tough.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #73
That is definitely not an 8.8. Might be a Ford 9 inch though. I got the 8.8 because it was affordable. Although everything was so rusted I ended up replacing the bearings, wheel cylinders, drums and shoes. Didn't work out nearly as good as I had hoped.
 

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That is definitely not an 8.8. Might be a Ford 9 inch though. I got the 8.8 because it was affordable. Although everything was so rusted I ended up replacing the bearings, wheel cylinders, drums and shoes. Didn't work out nearly as good as I had hoped.
Sorry to hear that, at least it's new now, right?:)
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Indeed, it looks quite sturdy now. Also I have some interesting brake master cylinders on the way that will give this tractor separate left an right braking. While all wheel drive or four wheel drive seems like a good idea. I am pursuing 2wd with independent braking.
 

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Discussion Starter #76
Where they discuss using Ford Carrier in an IH Cub Transmission and other OEM's, is the Ford 8 the same as what you are using? They claim the transmission is the most sought after in Garden Tractor competition Pulling, this set up must work well.
I wasn't familiar with Ford 8" but apparently it's a thing. Its designed just like the Ford 9" but smaller. The 8.8 is a C clip style axle. Below is a link to info on 8". I think the 8.8 is probably harder to assemble, particularly if installing a limited slip differential.
 

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Pennsylvania and Panzer tractors used a early '50's Plymouth rear differential that was narrowed at the factory..some even had positraction..I think they set up the brakes so they could lock each wheel independently to aid in turning also..

A friend has a Pennsylvania with a hydraulic drive setup that is factory,the hydraulic motor is mounted above the pinion on the rear differential housing...it has a 10 HP Tecumseh HH engine--I watched in amazement as he dragged a 78 Camaro that sat beside his shop for a decade with 4 flat tires out like it was nothing..tractor had 15" car rims & tires and they were calcium filled,with tire chains..it has a bench seat two people can fit on too,I had to sit in it with him so there was more weight to get the car moving..one rear tire refused to turn,the brake shoes were rusted up,but it just dragged it anyways!..

I read those Cub Cadet transaxles use the same ring & pinion as a '60's Dodge Dart !...they were also used in the larger Lo-Boy series,so in a garden tractor they were overkill,but I'd rather have something beefy instead of wimpy when your going to be carrying serious weight or putting the tractor to the test doing hard work..

I saw a cranberry bog buggy a guy built using two differentials from an old 4x4 pickup--he made a channel iron frame ,and welded the axle housings solid to the frame--he used a small block Chevy 283 and a Power Glide automatic for a power train,he connected both differential pinions together with a home made drive shaft made from 1-1/2" schedule 40 pipe and junkyard u-joint yokes,added a pair of pillow block bearings about 12" from either side of center to support the drive shaft,and welded a #60 chain sprocket to the drive shaft,and made a adapter for a small sprocket to fit the yoke on the transmission output shaft..

The thing turned out to be very powerful,but also a bit to speedy --last time I saw him he said he was going to try making a double reduction sprocket setup for it..he said he would have used a transfer case,but did not have one,and doubted the roughly 2 to 1 reduction would slow it down enough..
I think he also had to flip the rear axle over,because he did not realize the transfer case reverses the rotation for the front diff on a truck..
He said he clocked it at 50 mph driving it on a frozen cranberry bog while sanding the bog with it once !..--it also does impressive 4 wheel smoke shows..:)
 
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