[Ken Miller]

My 1969 Case 580 CK 188 Power Shuttle diesel won’ start unless cold and then only with ether.
After redoing the heads, this tractor would start easily even with weak battery whether cold or hot. While moving to re-attached backhoe front wheel lugs popped and wheel came off crashing to concrete. Motor kept running fine but after turning it off it would not restart after replacing front end/hubs - unless we used ether.

Thought something to do with fuel so rebuilt fuel pump - no change: replaced fuel filters and ensured all fuel lines open - no change; had it rebuilt again professionally - no change; Checked compression while trying to start: 260-275 all 4 cylinders vs supposed to be 400 when warm and running 200 RPMS so don't know if 260-275 is good or bad?

Started with ether - individually loosen all injector fuel lines and motor ran rough until tightened injector. Adjusted fuel pump timing for best running. Shut off and still won't restart when warm even with ether (or a propane blow torch), but will after cold with ether.

Impact of wheel coming off only change we know between easy start and now hard start. After starting problem appeared we did have generator rebuilt and got new regulator. We are stymied - don't know what else to check? Anyone know what the compression is supposed to be when cold cranking starter? Other suggestions? Have video of it running if that would help.

 

[Kubota Ronin]

Welcome aboard Ken. 🍻

What damage (other than the hard starting) did you find? I'm wondering if something in the air intake maybe got knocked loose... not too familiar with these.

 

[Ken Miller]

Welcome aboard Ken. 🍻

What damage (other than the hard starting) did you find? I'm wondering if something in the air intake maybe got knocked loose... not too familiar with these.

We didn't find any damage other than the wheel hub. Hard to imagine that was source of change in starting problems but it's only thing we can think of that occurred between easy starting and then only starting when cold and with ether so thought it worth mentioning.

 

[Kubota Ronin]

So... the engine is cranking strong but it just won't fire?

Edit: just a thought... did you check the fuses?

 

[Ken Miller]

So... the engine is cranking strong but it just won't fire?

Edit: just a thought... did you check the fuses?

Not sure there are fuses? If fuse bad presume wouldn't run at all. Diesel so no spark - just compression as I understand it.

 

[RussKish]

Most diesels start with what is called a glow plug for each cylinder, those need power and usually are fused protected and often have a timed relay to turn the power off. In the really old ones there is a switch to turn the glow plugs on and off by the operator who kept track of time.

 

[Ingersoll444]

No glow plug on these. It does have a heated intake but on mine at least you only need to use it if under 40 deg... So if it has power to crank it will start. you can pull the battery right out. In fact mine doesnt have a working charging system. After I start it I turn off the key to save power while I use it. Strange that its only warm it will not start. Compression seems low... strange its across all 4 cyl's though...Im lost..

 

[RussKish]

Compression low on all 4 cylinders, I'd be thinking a gasket went bad. Or warped head or a block that cracked between the cylinders (hope not).

 

[MARK (LI)]

First off Ken

It sounds like you did get it to run...with some fooling around with it.....so it is not "shot"...I agree with the gasket aspect...I would check that all the bolts are torqued down tight enough...if they are...go further...order a new gasket and change it and see what happens.....I was thinking possibly cracked the block when it went down...but I don't think you would get it started at all ...any possibility that the gasket you used was too thick?

 

[Ken Miller]

Most diesels start with what is called a glow plug for each cylinder, those need power and usually are fused protected and often have a timed relay to turn the power off. In the really old ones there is a switch to turn the glow plugs on and off by the operator who kept track of time.

Pretty sure it started before without engaging glow plugs, but yes, it has a glow plugs that operate with a button. Not sure button works so we touch it direct to starter cable to for few seconds before trying to start. We've even tried blow torch directly into intake manifold with not success. Do glow plugs go bad?

First off Ken

It sounds like you did get it to run...with some fooling around with it.....so it is not "shot"...I agree with the gasket aspect...I would check that all the bolts are torqued down tight enough...if they are...go further...order a new gasket and change it and see what happens.....I was thinking possibly cracked the block when it went down...but I don't think you would get it started at all ...any possibility that the gasket you used was too thick?

One head bolt didn't tighten down quite right/probably starting to strip - expected to see differences in cylinder PSI if that had popped lose. I'd post short video of it running but damned if can figure how to get it out of phone and on computor so can attach.

 

[RussKish]

Have you check the resistance of the glow plugs? They may not be working at all. Some need a few tries at 10-15 seconds at a time.

 

[Ken Miller]

No glow plugs - just preheat chamber as I understand.

Update on our tractor after today's work. Rechecked, & beefed up battery/battery cable & connections to ensure strong starter - no change as still will not start cold (60 degrees) until/unless add ether. Seems to run fine - will try to post link to YouTube tried to learn today. After warming up shut off and checked/slight adjustments to valves. Oil on all lifters but seems less that novice would expect - although Oil pressure gauge registers high. Then tried to restart without success and chose not to use ether again as wanted to redo last weeks compression tests based on info from you all. Removed all injectors and checked compression: all cylinders between 260-280 PSI. Then put prox 1/4 cup motor oil in each cylinder before retesting compression on all cylinders: All cylinders now between 350-370 seemingly confirming need for new rings/sleeve/etc???? (although this still doesn't explain why started/ran fine before front wheel popped off????

Another potential clue(??): earlier when taking starter off noticed hydraulic fluid in Bell Housing don't know if that's normal/ok - if something major maybe we don't want to throw another $1,000 at rebuilding motor? Thoughts?

Finally, We assume if putting in new rings probably should do the cylinder sleeves also? Does this take special tool of some kind; if so is this affordable to buy for single job or can normally rent somewhere. Recall that when replacing head (had to clean out/hone two cylinders full of water when first got the "free" backhoe) noticed the sleeves sticking up a little above block - presume that normal?

Thanks for any/all responses - will try to attach YouTube link of it running today - just won't restart!!!

 

[dcsco]

When the wheel came off, was the fuel tank low. You could have sucked some air into the fuel system. Add fuel and bleed the pump and injectors in that case.


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[Ken Miller]

When the wheel came off, was the fuel tank low. You could have sucked some air into the fuel system. Add fuel and bleed the pump and injectors in that case.


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We rechecked fuel supply/lines numerous times - all a ok. Ran out of options so in process of replacing pistons, rings, sleeves, & bearings as last resort.

Ken

 

[MARK (LI)]

Pretty big job...best of luck with it...keep us posted

 

[dcsco]

Please let us see what is found.
Thanks.


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[Ingersoll444]

Please let us see what is found.
Thanks.


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Ditto here.. Im really interested to see what you find when you dig into it. Ive done like nothing to mine... other then every few years I need to dig into the pump to free up a sticking fuel cut lever.

 

[Tractor-Holic]

Ether can do a number on rings,pistons and cyliners...many diesels get "addicted" to ether once its been used,they wont start without it..
Before you tear it apart though,it may pay to check the injector pump timing...my brother had a Fordson Major Diesel backhoe that was a bear to start both when he bought it,and after he did an in the tractor rebuild--he found out the injector pump timing way way retarded--once he advanced it to where it belonged,it fired up very quickly,usually in 3 or 4 revolutions!..

 

[Ken Miller]

Ether can do a number on rings,pistons and cyliners...many diesels get "addicted" to ether once its been used,they wont start without it..
Before you tear it apart though,it may pay to check the injector pump timing...my brother had a Fordson Major Diesel backhoe that was a bear to start both when he bought it,and after he did an in the tractor rebuild--he found out the injector pump timing way way retarded--once he advanced it to where it belonged,it fired up very quickly,usually in 3 or 4 revolutions!..

Update after replacing cylinders, sleeves, bearings, & rebuilding starter. **** thing still won't start: cranks really good with rebuilt starter/new battery; tried to fire/start once with ether after neither pre-heat or propane torch to intake manifold in room about 45 degree's. Looks like unspent fuel vapor from exhaust. Loosened fuel lines to ensure fuel flow to injectors and fuel return line - all good (flowing, not squirting)(prior to rebuild when running and check fuel lines ahead of injectors fuel would squirt when loosen line). Rechecked valves all at .014 per book. As reminder, prior to rebuild it would only start with ether, and then only when cold - seemed to run smooth - compression all even but low so rebuild motor seemed only option left. Also as reminder it used to start fine before wheel lugs popped and one hub (now replaced) crashed to ground. We didn't move/adjust the fuel pump (also rebuilt & new injectors) while rebuilding the motor. We didn't take timing gear cover off to examine that for damage cause it ran fine (after getting started) - didn't think that could be issue but now wondering because that's only thing we haven't explored - starting to think just have very expensive boat anchor??? Appreciate any thoughts for the experts out there.

 

[SuperK]

Ken, any news on this rebuild? Just read the thread and have interest in how this turns out. I am currently working on a "deal" for a 580 CK myself and was looking into these forum threads to get a peek as to what I might be getting into with the CK. I apologise that I don't have any advice for you as I have never owned a diesel whether car, truck or tractor in my life so no help there. I am following this thread however, as I like a good "eureka" story and I'm hoping you find the issue to be one of the crazy simple things since it doesn't look like any of the major issues. You seemed to pretty much cover everything. Good luck. Keep us posted please.