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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well,
I thought since we had so much fun talking about the use of premium fuel & ethanol in a past thread that perhaps Bob Mac, Jnelson, Castoff might enjoy reviewing the changes in motor oils.
Since everyone on this forum loves their GT's and wants to maintain them to the best level of operation, that Motor Oil ratings are sometimes overlooked.
The performance oriented car guys may or may not be aware that Motor oil has been altered to reduce the (Phosphorus/Zinc= ZDDP) component in the additive package.
Anyone ever notice that all packaged small engine oil is API-SJ rated, but most auto oils are rated up to API-SM. And from my understanding this is about to change again this fall with further reduction in the ZDDP. Great if you have roller camshafts, and Cat converters but bad for flat tappet camshafts and perhaps rod journals on splash oiled engines.
I discovered this issue about 2001 and its has more recently become mainstream in auto publications over the last few years.
Oil is Oil , right???? :thSick:
Think again.
 

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No sir. Oil is not oil. However, since there are still huge numbers of non-E type big block diesels still being used in vocational trucks, I don't see the elimination of all the necessary wear additives for flat tappet engines suddenly disappearing from the scene. Rotella T from Shell is readily available in single grades as well as multi-grades.

Since most of the motor oil is recycled these days, it makes me wonder why the elimination of zinc as an additive has come about. And if the unthinkable should happen, you can bet your boots that several companies will start to bottle wear additives to supplement these new oils when they are used in older engines. We saw that with Octane Booster many years back.
 

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Well, most of my experience with lubrication involves the physical management of oil (dry sump systems, oil coolers, baffled oil pans, crank shaft skimmers / wipers, etc) as opposed to the oil itself. In most cases we used the racing oil provided by whoever was sponsoring the race car(s) I was currently involved with and we seldom found that engine failures were due to oil breakdown, but rather due to oil foaming, starvation, etc. Racing oils are formulated to resist foaming and oxidizing at high temperatures. The oil in the engines we raced was changed so often that things like in-engine storage, moisture, and longevity were not issues. In some cases (such as nitro burning top fuel cars) we had to deal with fuel contamination issues. In any case, not much of my experience would have relevance to this forum.

One notable exception and oddity was an interesting engine oil product produced by Arco. It was dino (petroleum) based oil with graphite in it. This was during the first oil shortages in the 70's and it was marketed to improve fuel efficiency (which I imagine it did do to a small extent due to reduced friction much the same as synthetic oil). The oil was jet black out of the can with that characteristic graphite silvery sheen to it. We experimented with it in some Trans Am and Can Am road race engines and some off-shore race boat engines. We monitored lower oil temperatures under load both in racing conditions and on the dyno. Before we were sold on the oil we wanted to be sure that the lower oil temps weren't due to the oil transferring less heat away from engine components (remember that oil is not only a lubricant but also a coolant). We determined that the lower temperature was in fact due to lower friction after we saw slight RPM increases in the engines under full load. We also found that after a week of running it in our street cars that we had to adjust the idle settings on our carbs back down since the engines had started idling about 100 RPM higher than normal and would run-on.

The Arco graphite oil disappeared from the market after only a couple of years - not sure why except that synthetics were becoming available and gathering more of the market attention, I guess. Could also be that many people were not keen about pouring new oil into their engines that looked like it had already run several hundred thousand miles.

I do add Schaeffer #132 oil supplement to the oil in my tractors and vehicles - http://www.schaefferoil.com/specialty/132.html. I have read good reviews of this product at Bob The Oil Guy http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/.

In as much as I keep good quality oil in my tractors and vehicles I don't know how much improvement the additive makes, though it makes me feel like I am doing more. I think the most important thing the additive can add is extra protection during the first few seconds of engine start-up when the engine is cold and there is zero oil pressure.

JN
 

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i have been upset about this for a while as an auto technician, and owner of a handful of older jeeps, that were designed to use oils with the higher level of zinc. i think it stinks, screw my catalytic converter and oxygen sensors, i care more for my engine's longevity.

anywho, what are you guys doing with these engines on our tractors? i recently changed the oil in my new to me 224 kohler 14 hp, and i used 30w rotella. i did notice after about 5 hours of service it was 1/2 qt low. this tractor was neglected, but is not leaking oil, and it does not smoke at all. the service was somewhat heavier service, very hot, and around 1 1/2 hrs at a time straight working.

would it be advisable to use thicker oil in the summer, 50w? if i find a snow blower, and run it in the winter, i'd definitely switch back.

edit: any input on things like sea foam, i've never used it. or lucas? i'm not a magic in a bottle kinda guy, i don't really care for additives. but i've had good first hand results from lucas in an old jeep that was using a qt of oil a month, after frequent oil changes, and this additve, it didn't use a qt per change, and i eventually weened it off the lucas totally and didn't lose 1/2 qt between changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Castoff, I am not familiar with Diesel Non E-type engines so please enligthen those of us that do not know those terms. I know Shell Rotella has been a good oil and did have higher ZDDP ratings. But I think it has recently been reformulated and reduced. There are alot of additive being marketed to address this issue. I have only thus far used Generous Motors EOS & Redline Oil Break in lube added to 10w-30 Brad Penn 1 Racing oil in Muscle cars.
For small engines that I serviced at my shop I used SJ rated 30wt or SJ 10w-30.
I bring it up because I suspect that i've seen two small engine failures that might be related to this issue (then again I'am Paranoid about thngs these days).
JNelson- did'nt that graphite oil played havoc with oil flow and pressure drop across the oil filter? I would thing it would plug the filter. For years I used Crane Moly cam breakin lube, which is high in moly & graphite & they always recommened changing the oil filter within 500 miles for fear of clogging the filter.
jpdocdave- Yeah it stinks & you probably know the story as to why they made the switch. All I know about Seafoam is that local farmers swear by it. It is suppose to clean fuel systems, crank case when used in oil & de-ice a frozen gas line (which I found It does very well). Every watched the you tube video of guys pouring down the intake to clean carbon build up out? I am thinking it might solve my misiqito problem also:thThumbsU
 

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GET TOUGH GET A CASE!
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I use Amsoil 4 stroke 10w-30/SAE 30 small engine oil. It takes the worry out of what I'm actually buying.
I recommend talking to Don on MTF here. He can hook you up with some. Great guy by the way... Talked with him sometime back.

For example...
My uncle has a 12 horse kohler (on a homemade CASE GT) that he rebuilt 35 years ago and has been using Amsoil in it and never had it apart since. He has been using 5w30 and changed it once a year for the last 35 years. He cuts at least 2 acres and pulls farm equipment around with it every year so it's not babied.
For what it's worth... :fing32:
 

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Castoff, I am not familiar with Diesel Non E-type engines so please enligthen those of us that do not know those terms.
Most modern diesels are "drive by wire" models that use a computerized engine management system just like modern cars and trucks with gas engines do. These are "E" or "electronic" engines. What I was referring to are the older engines that have their accelerator pedals connected to the injector pumps with steel rods and swivel joints. Those are "non-E" engines and there are thousands of older Mack, Detroit, Cat, Cummins and Volvo engines out there in Class 7 and 8 trucks plus many more in road graders, loaders, dozers, forklifts, excavators, tub grinders and other construction machinery that all have flat tappet engines which need the protection that zinc offered.


The above will be my final contribution to this thread. Discussions on oil are equal to discussions about politics, religion or sex. Everyone has their own views and few, if any, will ever accept the views of others
 

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JNelson- did'nt that graphite oil played havoc with oil flow and pressure drop across the oil filter?
Never saw any evidence of it. Apparently the graphite was milled so fine that it passed right through. The graphite was so fine that it stayed suspended in the oil - no settling out in the can or the engine.

JN
 

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Hi Troops,
Been dealing with computer problems but am back I think!!!!
I had a 1978 Peterbilt 378 with a 425 Cat that went 1.2 million before an out of frame overhaul. Most of this trucks life was using 15W40 Rotella and Lucas additives. It was a repo with 125,000 miles when I got it. I leased it out but when possible I did the routine and other maintanance. Counting mile markers was not my thing and living out of a sleeper got old quick!!!
I still use Rotella 15W40 in my Onan although I have changed over to 20W50 synthetic in the hydraulic systems on both of my Ingersolls.
I suspect that in time all flat tappet engines will suffer, perhaps there is an additive that can be added to the oil to help.
Bob MacGregor in CT:thThumbsU
 

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I have changed over to 20W50 synthetic in the hydraulic systems
How has that worked out for you? I have a 448 that I purchased used and it is loosing ground speed after it gets hot. I don't know what is in it now and I was planning on changing it out to Rotella 20W-50 but have not been able to locate a source yet. You've got me wondering if synthetic will work well instead.

JN
 

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The voice of reason !
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Ok now you folks have got me paranoid !

I god my LT used and first thing I did was get it cleaned and serviced (along with replacing oil, all filters, cleaning the carb and tank, greasing and lubing all moving points) It has a Briggs & Stratton Vangard 16 hp single cylinder so I changed the oil to Mobil 0w30 green cap and when I talked to Briggs they said bad idea?

It had regular oil in it when I got it according to the PO but Briggs said to keep using regular and not switch to synthetic ?

So I took the Mobil back and got Shell Rotella T1 straight grade SAE 30.

Upon reading this thread now it seem I still have the wrong oil ?

According to the label it doesn't meet the specs you've set down, it says : Meets API Service CF-2, CF ?

Now the Briggs manual states use straight SAE 30 or 5w30 or 10w30 synthetic which the Mobil 0w30 meets so why would Briggs say don't use it ?

They even said don't use their synthetic oil ?

Since all the experts are here I ask a small request PLEASE SET ME STRAIGHT ON THIS !

I'm getting tired of not getting a straight answer and I don't want to blow-up this engine it runs strong and is stone reliable so far.

Thanks for any help you can provide Ron :thanku:

P.S. I added the pages from the Briggs manual for reference.
 

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I use Amsoil in everything an have since 1985 . But regaurdless of what you use an why you use it the only way to know what kind of job its doing for you is to do a oil analysis . Amsoil offers that service but theres labs everywhere lots of Catapilar dealers
have in house labs . I just like useing something that has proven its self to me but if I have a question I can call an ask . But thers lots of great products on the market
that do a great job but with things changeing everyday its hard to keep up with them .
I,m glad I don.t have to worry about that .
 

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Ok now you folks have got me paranoid !

I god my LT used and first thing I did was get it cleaned and serviced (along with replacing oil, all filters, cleaning the carb and tank, greasing and lubing all moving points) It has a Briggs & Stratton Vangard 16 hp single cylinder so I changed the oil to Mobil 0w30 green cap and when I talked to Briggs they said bad idea?

It had regular oil in it when I got it according to the PO but Briggs said to keep using regular and not switch to synthetic ?

So I took the Mobil back and got Shell Rotella T1 straight grade SAE 30.

Upon reading this thread now it seem I still have the wrong oil ?

According to the label it doesn't meet the specs you've set down, it says : Meets API Service CF-2, CF ?

Now the Briggs manual states use straight SAE 30 or 5w30 or 10w30 synthetic which the Mobil 0w30 meets so why would Briggs say don't use it ?

They even said don't use their synthetic oil ?

Since all the experts are here I ask a small request PLEASE SET ME STRAIGHT ON THIS !

I'm getting tired of not getting a straight answer and I don't want to blow-up this engine it runs strong and is stone reliable so far.

Thanks for any help you can provide Ron :thanku:

P.S. I added the pages from the Briggs manual for reference.
You are using the correct oil (sae 30), If getting synthetic get it in 5w-30 that is what briggs recomends

oil_chart.gif
 

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Hi JN,
I don't think that Rotella is available in 20W50. The only 20W50 synthetic that I could find locally was Valvoline. Both my Ingersolls now have it in the hydraulic systems and I have no complaints so far. $7/quart for 20W50 synthetic Valvoline!!!
Bob MacGregor in CT
 

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The voice of reason !
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You are using the correct oil (sae 30), If getting synthetic get it in 5w-30 that is what briggs recomends

View attachment 114800
See thats the thing I'm not sure ?

Mobil 0w30 synthetic is suppose to be the same as 5w30 syn see pic, and Briggs is 5w30 syn. But Briggs said don't switch from normal oil to synthetic at all ?????

So I'm lost is the Shell Rotella T1 SAE30 I bought correct for a normal oil ?

And heres a kick in the butt it says on one page of the Shell site diesel use but on another it says SJ rated which I think is for gas ?
 

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See thats the thing I'm not sure ?

Mobil 0w30 synthetic is suppose to be the same as 5w30 syn see pic, and Briggs is 5w30 syn. But Briggs said don't switch from normal oil to synthetic at all ?????

So I'm lost is the Shell Rotella T1 SAE30 I bought correct for a normal oil ?
The SAE30 oil is the correct oil for it in summer, if you are using it in the winter then you want to use regular 5w-30, 5w-30 synthetic is a all season oil for your engine, you can change to synthetic it will not hurt your engine, I am switching to synthetic this fall and I will be using valvoline synthetic oil in 5W-30
 

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The voice of reason !
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I just cant see spending $14.00 a quart for the Briggs just because it says Briggs & Stratton

And why would the Briggs tech guy tell me not to switch to synthetic ?
 

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I generally follow this rule.
Engines with oil filters such as newer Briggs, 5W30 synthetic year round. Onans are in the older catagory and I use dino oil in mine.
Engines without oil filters, 10W30 or 30W dino oil as most of these engines are splash lubricated.
I generally use detergent dino oil for breakin of a new or rebuilt engine and after 50 or so hours I change it to synthetic if the manufacturer recommends it.
At times I have used non detergent oil for breakin to permit the engine to "coke up" and seal the possible leaky areas.
Jusy my thoughts.
Bob MacGregor in CT:biglaugh::bannana::fam32::bump9:
 
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