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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The whole procedure of useing straps to restrict the deck/or 3pt cylinder
seems to be a pita.
Could one "T" into the line that leaves the pump and goes to the
single spool valve? Then, install another valve block(say 2 spools).
Return from the second valve, and "T" into the return line from the
factory single spool valve.

I'm assuming the single spool valve is a closed center valve.(I guess I could easily check that by cracking open the return line.)Is it closed center?

Is this the way to go, or is there a port(s) available on the pump that
would be the better way to go?

I'm sure this has been asked before, but .......(I'm to lazy to search tonight)

Thanks for any input.
 

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NO. I did that very thing when I installed P/S on my 1855 and then wondered why nothing would work. You can go into the return line (not T'd) to your extra(open center) valves and then back to the pump. I hooked my P/S up that way and it works fine. I can feel it in the P/S if I raise the three point while turning but it still works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You can go into the return line (not T'd) to your extra(open center) valves and then back to the pump.

Not sure what your saying here?

Are you saying to take the return from the single spool valve, and run it
into a 2 spool open center valve, and the return from that 2 spool
goes back to the pump?

So, in order for that to work, that means the single spool valve is
open center.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

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Yes and yes to your questions. The charge pump is what powers that circuit. I'm going to put hydralic steering on my ole 1855 to replace the power assist I have now. The steering valve has a power beyond port which will go to the lift valves and I'll have a return from the steering valve and the lift valves which will be T'd together and back to the pump. Now, it comes from the return side of the lift valves to the P/S control valve and then back to the pump.
 

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Not sure what your saying here?

Are you saying to take the return from the single spool valve, and run it
into a 2 spool open center valve, and the return from that 2 spool
goes back to the pump?

So, in order for that to work, that means the single spool valve is
open center.
The proper term is open circuit, closed center valve. The oil has a free flow path (circuit) through the valve body, but the spools have a closed center to hold the load. Both terms are needed to describe the valve.

That being said, you have the circuitry nailed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

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I've used the DO3 manual valves at work and I much prefer the ones on my tractor. Fewer parts to fail, and they do fail on the DO3s.

A tandem center offers the return flow from the first valve as the supply for the second, if it is is actuated at the same time, so there is no loss of flow. It allows 2 valves to operate at the existing full flow capability before going back to tank, unlike the valves on our tractors which give the return flow from the first valve an option of supplying the second valve or going back to tank, whichever way requires less pressure.

They are very quick because both valves have full flow, and you can get into overcontrolling problems until you get a feel for them. That's the small downside. The big disadvantage is the additive pressures. The pressures being developed can often exceed the relief valve setting on our tractors when they are added together, since the pressure needed to do work is the difference between the supply pressure and the return pressure.

Unless you're set on solenoid actuated valves, these are better suited to our tractors.

http://cgi.ebay.com/GARDEN-TRACTOR-...085?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a640a3e55

I can't tell from that picture if it has a float position on one valve or not.

Given a choice, this is on the MF1450 thru 1855 tractors and I paid $142 for the same thing at Sears in 1979, and it has a float position. Found under "Hydraulic Spool Valves".

http://cgi.ebay.com/GARDEN-TRACTOR-...085?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a640a3e55

My offer is still open. The big dog (Greyhound) works well between us. PM me your phone number before you decide to buy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks Bob for getting back to me on this.
I now know why your list of "down for repairs" hasn't shrunk.
You're just a darn nice guy that's very helpful, and you're
spending alot of your time solving our problems.:thThumbsU:thThumbsU

Thanks for explaining that tandem spool issue.

I'm bit unclear about the part where you talk about "additive pressure".
Could you please elaborate?
Are you talking about a downside if both the deck valve, and the
D03 for the 3pt are used at the same time?

Regarding the issue of overcontrol. I'm fully expecting to deal with
that learning curve. I was thinking of leaving provission to put
a speed control in one of the lines between the D03 and the
3pt cylinder. Does that make sense to you?

I have one of those 2 spool manual valves on the shelf. Not sure if
it's good, but that wouldn't be hard to find out.
I would prefer to use it,(for the control issue) but I just can't find a spot to put it on the tractor, without damaging the tin, or having a big
ugly bunch of hoses hanging around going to an external valve
mount post/bracket.
This 3pt is going on my MF16, that I'm almost done with. I've
spent way too much time doing a total resto on it. I really
don't want to destroy the original look. But I welcome
any ideas for mounting that manual valve.

Yesterday I built a standoff, and installed the 3pt(off a 1450/1650)
As you can see, I had to do some reckoning/altering to the 3pt, I've
not altered the 16.







As you can see, I had to notch the inner left lift arm to clear the cylinder.
I plan on scabbing some flatbar on the inside to regain strenght. I'm thinkin
I might try to make the standoff look better(like a box) once I get the
hose routing figured out.

Thanks Bob for the Big dog offer. I will keep it in mind.
On a side note.Bob,I bet you're familiar with the names-Nopak Maxair Compair .
 

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Yeah, it does take a little time to generate most of my long winded posts. Some of them get several edits done between typing errors and afterthoughts.

Additive pressure is the result of including a tandem valve in a 2 or more valve circuit. The pressure required for the second actuator is added to the pressure required for the first actuator since both work on pressure differential. eg. Valve 1 needs 550 psi to accomplish its task with an inlet pressure of 550 psi and a return of 0 psi to make it happen. Valve 2 needs 700 psi to do its assigned task and thus needs 700 psi at its inlet and 0 psi at its outlet. Either load is fine on our implement system which is relieved at 700 - 1000 psi. The problem comes when operating both valves at the same time. The supply for valve 2 is the return for valve 1. If you need 700 psi at the inlet for valve 2, that is the pressure that valve 1 sees as its return pressure. Since the return pressure is 700 psi on valve 1 and the pressure differential required to do its task is 550 psi, you add the pressures together to get the total you need for both. The result? The 1000 psi relief valve pops and nothing works at the right speed. Our valves give the oil an option of supplying the second valve or going back to tank, whichever is the lesser pressure. Actually, now that I've written it up and thought about it, the lesser pressure thing is over the relief valve, so I guess we're using tandem valves anyway. I forgot about that, it's been 20 years since I tried to get the tandems on the chock cars at work.

This is normally not a concern on our equipment since it only takes 2 or 3 seconds for full stroke on an implement cylinder. On our chock change cars at work, it created situations that some of the guys couldn't handle and the system was reconfigured back to original where you could only use one control at a time. Slow motion, something like stopping the tractor so you can turn the steering wheel or lift an implement instead of turning, lifting and driving, all at the same time.

There is a flow control for the DO3 valves that mounts between the base and the valve. We had one on each of the 3 valves on our chock cars. I kept mine at wide open while some others slowed theirs down. The problem with the flow control was an increase in system pressure on a system that was already close to max. Heat generation became a problem in a 110* shop and the system would lose the ability to make pressure as the temperature climbed. Not a good thing for production. Also not a problem that we'll have to deal with. A flow control makes sense if you have a lot more flow than is reasonable to use. Again, not a problem in our situation.

To maintain the cosmetic appearance of your tractor, you might consider swapping out the seat pan for one off of a 1450 thru 1855. and mounting your valve set under it in the same manner as those tractors. I believe the pans are quite similar. You might be able to get one off of eBay (I did) and maybe all the lines as well. The lines should be very close to what you need, if not identical since the valves and transmission are in the same locations. The cylinder lines may not fit but the tube ends would certainly help keep the outward appearance tidy. Getting the exact Massey valves would assure that the lines connected without added fittings, but the valve set you have may have the same fitting configuration.

That 3PH is going to look great when it's finished! One thing to watch for, the top link on those hitches is very short already and you may have to shorten it even more because of the stand-off. Don't shorten the original (they are NLA), make a new one for your application.

Nopak Maxair Compair ???????
 

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I'd use the stock implement valves for that rear cylinder. My 1450 has the valve but no rear three point, the fittings have a cap on them. I could use that valve with lines run as needed to power a remote cylinder or whatever. Only difference I see in the way you've done that three point is you'll have to extend the stock lines or make new ones to go to that cylinder mounted on the rear. I think that's a Sunstrand hydro in that tractor and if it is the implement relief is built into the hydro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well, I weighed the pros and cons, and talked it over with myself for
some time, and got up this morning and built the mounting plate for the D03
solenoid valve, which will be shipped on Mon.



Considering how I plan on useing it, I'd rather maintain the appearance of the 16.

The wife will get use to the system as she pulls me around, while I relax in the trailer.:sidelaugh:sidelaugh




So, after that was delt with, I made a sleeve hitch adaptor for my
Brinley plow, and then some more adaptors which allow me to
strap on the mini Sears(I think) implements.








Anyways, we'll see how it all works out in a couple weeks. (hopefully)
Thanks Bob, and Butch for your input. I'll keep ya posted.

Bob, what is a chock change car?
I'll PM you about Nopak.
 

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I made an adopter something like you've got there for my tractors. I've got a ball mount and tow hitch that goes on it too. I like it in that I can go get one of the trailers out of the barn and never leave the seat to hook-up or unhook. I had a plow like yours given to me and it works good with the adapter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I made an adopter something like you've got there for my tractors. I've got a ball mount and tow hitch that goes on it too. I like it in that I can go get one of the trailers out of the barn and never leave the seat to hook-up or unhook. I had a plow like yours given to me and it works good with the adapter.
Yeah, gonna make up ball adaptors, and chain grab hook adaptor yet.
I think I'll also make one up identical to the standard snowmobile hitch.
 

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Love that trailer!! Looks like a good sized recliner chair would fit right in there! I see a three point listed as an option on the MF14/16 in an old ad I have, where did the factory put the control valves? I was thinking of the 1450/1650 MF, not the MF14/16 when I said use the stock controls. My 1450 doesn't have a rear three point but the control valve w/handle came on it from the factory for one. The way that rear cylinder is mounted now you'll actually get a little more lifting power with the same hydralic psi. In retract mode you have to subtract the dia of the rod vs extend mode is full piston face.
 

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Anyways, we'll see how it all works out in a couple weeks. (hopefully)
Thanks Bob, and Butch for your input. I'll keep ya posted.

Bob, what is a chock change car?
I'll PM you about Nopak.
That's a very nice setup for the Sears implements. Great job!

I was a millwright in the strip mill of the local steel mill and my main job was supplying rolls for the mill. We bring in the dirty rolls, pull the chocks containing the bearings and put them on fresh rolls to send back to the mill. Simple, as far as that end is concerned but the chock and bearing weighed 3500 lb. and the roll was over 28,000 lb. new.

The chock changing car was a "little" buggy that rode on rails along side of a build-up bed that was 120' long, one car on each side. It had an on board hydraulic system driven by a 5 hp electric motor that ran the hydraulic motor driven #40 chain drive to run it up and down the rails, a 3 1/2" x 36" cylinder for pulling the chocks off and shoving them back on the rolls, and a hydraulic motor driven screw jack system to lift the table the chocks rode on. If we scewed in the relief valve a little, we could pick up a 15 ton roll and carry it up the bed with both cars working in tandem. The car was fabricated from 12" channel and 1" plate. A lot of fun to operate, after a lot of practice.

I hope you ordered the subplate with that valve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks again Bob for all your help.
I'm really lookin forward to getting this project
up and running, and tested.

Yep, ordered the 1/4"npt base.

I have a good selection of fittngs, but never enough.
So I thought I'd buy online. **** it all it's frustrating
trying to buy online from a Canadian source. They don't
publsh prices, or they're out of stock.
So my options are: buy state side.(and wait 2 weeks)
Go to princess auto in barrie (probably out of stock after a 1hr drive)
Go to the local dude, and watch him scratch his head.:thSick:


If anyone knows of a good online source for hydraulics, please
let us know.

Thanks for the explaination of the chock cars. Interesting.
 

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Thanks again Bob for all your help.
I'm really lookin forward to getting this project
up and running, and tested.

Yep, ordered the 1/4"npt base.

I have a good selection of fittngs, but never enough.
So I thought I'd buy online. **** it all it's frustrating
trying to buy online from a Canadian source. They don't
publsh prices, or they're out of stock.
So my options are: buy state side.(and wait 2 weeks)
Go to princess auto in barrie (probably out of stock after a 1hr drive)
Go to the local dude, and watch him scratch his head.:thSick:


If anyone knows of a good online source for hydraulics, please
let us know.

Thanks for the explaination of the chock cars. Interesting.
Hey Will,

Princess Auto in Newmarket has a larger selection of fittings then Barrie. I have not been to the New Barrie store yet, simply because when ever I did go, they were out.

Any large tractor dealers in your area?? They usually have a good stock of fittings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Princess Auto in Newmarket has a larger selection of fittings then Barrie. I have not been to the New Barrie store yet, simply because when ever I did go, they were out.

Any large tractor dealers in your area?? They usually have a good stock of fittings.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that info.

I'm just lookin to avoid the 2hr (ea. way) drive for $30 worth of fittings.

Biggest tractor store around here is me.LOL
 
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