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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The sun shines on a dogs @$$ on occasion. This loader came off a JD 140. Not in pictures is the frame mount for the JD as well as a weight box of sorts. Patience being a virtue, wealth being a blessing - neither of which I possess, what is this loader worth - not to sell, but for a "fill in the blank" like me to pay? Suggestions first and then the manure load answer from me (asking price.) Sorry - need time to calm down. Oh yes, we have an '85 448.
Is it a mod 10 or mod 12?
 

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I got $700 out of my model 10 and it wasn't in as good a shape as that one looks to be. Seeing as it's on a trailer behind a Case have you already bought it? What did you give for it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, we were hoping to relieve our anxiety a bit by having some more input. We tend to do too much homework or not enough. Desperation and good fortune rarely coexist.
Price? Much more than you received for yours. Double.
And now there are the issues of connecting the hydraulics to the 448's. We aren't using the PTO. We are still looking thru the 165 plus pages of threads to get an idea. A guy north of us has put up ideas on other C,C,I forums (Gr....). However, we have no idea if the hydro output would blow out the hydraulics (spools) on this old loader. Yahoo has a group and a listing in which a photo copy of Johnson's Workhorse loader has a preset relief valve setting of 440 psi. That is low ! As "I" mentioned earlier, we are still researching. There is much more about this loader on the various JD forums, but they use hydrostatic drives. Still learning .............
 

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Your price is not out of line for a FEL that appears that clean, $2000 might be stretching things a bit. They aren't all that plentiful so if you're happy, that's what counts.

I have a separate pump for mine on my MF1655. Very few older GT hydros can support a FEL. For a Case, this is not an issue unless you use heavy oil year 'round. All the cylinders and lines are exposed to the cold and they can be real sluggish for the first while for snow removal until they thaw out, even with ATF for a hydraulic fluid.

The oil flow from your pump might be an issue if it's over 9 gpm. That is the upper limit for 3/8" lines and makes for very fast and jerky movements. I would recommend that you use your PTO to run the loader pump for that reason.

The relief setting only affects the loader circuit, but the choking action of the smaller lines and valve will affect heat generation if you use your on board hydraulics. This is another reason for separate systems.

I'm not saying don't use your on board system, but I'm not sure that you''ll like the results if you do without adding an extra component and associated hoses.

Your tractor can easily handle a higher relief setting than 440 psi for the FEL.
 

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Location, Location, Location is key :fing32:
I would be able to sell that for 1500+ all day long in the MA area
 

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I also have a 448 with a Qwik Way loader. I bought it with loader already installed. The PO had installed an electric clutch. None of the tractors hydrualics are used for the loader but by a separate pump driven off the front of the engine. I see a pulley on the loader with the two line which is probably the pump. The qwik way uses ATF and is the reserve tank is in the upright. BTW is gave 3500.00 for the set up.

Ted
 

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You should be able to run that loader just fine using the Case/Ingersoll hydraulic system. I would use the lift circuit and increase the relief setting to 575 to 600 PSIG.

:trink40:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
GENTLEMAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is with many thanks for your inputs on my/family dilemma. I plan on changing the hydro fluid this weekend (Rotella 15W-40.) I need to get a better idea of where Case thought to plumb in the rear PTO valve and possibly use that port. The lift port could be used with a switchable double (valve thingy.) We would like to keep the deck on and make the loader detachable. In the winter, though, it would be either the blower or the loader.

Because of our one tractor issue, complications require careful engineering. I would have to take a long look at the space fore and aft of the Onan. A double pulley, maybe. An electric PTO some where, ? Much thinking to do. Yes, the mount for the JD 140 (front support) has the PTO pulley with belt. Very small hydro pump.

Living only 10 miles from where the Case tractors were built, I am surprised to see so few around. But then again, I am paying attention to where I am driving. I probably need to get out more, too.

Thank you all. I will post pictures when it's done. Nobody hold your breath, though. You all are worth too much alive. (Little joke - forgive me please.):thank:

Oh. The loader uses 1/4 in lines. They look alright, but to be safe, replace. The (valve thingy) is called a 4 port lock valve. If it weren't for the throne, I wouldn't get much reading done.
 

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Hummmmmmmmm! Skinny little Cylenders.

Unless you have 3/8 lines and 2 inch diameter cylenders, you're not gonna like the feel of this loader.
I studied at great lenght the flow speed of the Case/Ingersoll Hydro system, and I want to take a minute and warn you (friendly warning) if you put this little skinny cylender loader on your tractor, connected to the pto at the rear, you're gonna hurt someone or even yourself with the jerking movement.

I'm no expert, but I've learned this much first hand. I'm not trying to discourage you by anymeans, but you should consider a slower pump running out of your Mechanical PTO instead.
 

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Because of our one tractor issue, complications require careful engineering. I would have to take a long look at the space fore and aft of the Onan. A double pulley, maybe. An electric PTO some where, ? Much thinking to do. Yes, the mount for the JD 140 (front support) has the PTO pulley with belt. Very small hydro pump.

Oh. The loader uses 1/4 in lines. They look alright, but to be safe, replace. The (valve thingy) is called a 4 port lock valve. If it weren't for the throne, I wouldn't get much reading done.
A single pulley is more than adequate for a separate pump. A FEL does not require high horsepower except momentarily when the relief valve pops. Small pumps can put out a surprisingly large amount of oil. You only need about 6 gpm for your FEL. That is the upper limit of flow for your 1/4" hoses. If you try to push more oil through, the pump will be needlessly working hard and creating the number one killer of hydraulic systems, HEAT.

Some of the hoses on my FEL are original and 40 years old and my FEL is relieved at a somewhat higher pressure than is proposed for yours. Your hoses look to be of good quality and not very old. Change them if you want, but I wouldn't. Not at $15 - $20 each for the 12 short ones. Buy one as a spare and wait for a failure, then change it. You'll wait a looong time. So will your son at those pressures.

If what you are referring to as the (valve thingy) is on the FEL, it is properly called a "2 spool, 4-way, open circuit, closed center valve set/with 1 float position", or more simply a "loader valve set" or "loader valves" or, if used in context, simply "valves", but "loader valves" is the norm. (Sorry for the lecture, it's bedtime.)

G'night.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks jayvee43 !

You made me laugh with your honesty and carefully worded description. BECAUSE, a picture of the hydraulic - bouncy - cars (I can't remember the name for them) came to mind as well as when in low range and giving the travel lever a healthy forward stab will launch the tractors front end up. (Not recommended !)

In the process of narrowing what option to go with (ie buy new loader, make my own or find good used or something to cobble together,) the search thru forums brought to light the issues of fluid dynamics, displacement, pressures and ......... Buying pre-engineered products versus ones own R+D has it's merits. SO, RATHER THAN RE-INVENTING THE WHEEL (BEEN THERE, DONE THAT AND STILL DOING ELSEWHERE) and taking into account the need for the implement, finding a way to use the factory pump with some sort of engine driven PTO. I have an AC clutch from a car (12V) new and might use it. The load on the loader's pump being the determining factor in conjunction with the load limit of the AC clutch. Clutch is new - never used, for a buck at a rummage sale 10 years ago. Yeah, but where and how to use/mount it. Off to the thrown to do some thinking. ha ha

jayvee43 The "aviator" you use, tractor with loader is one I found somewhere. I made a copy of the picture and did what I could to analyze what was done to the tractor. She is a beauty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Tudor, thank you and sleep well.

The "valve thingy" I referred to is from Northern Tool catalog as a manual hydraulic switch of sorts when one wants to use a pressure and return to operate two different functions but not at the same time. I hope I get the names correct, (Roul) ends his messages with the "lazy minds find easier solutions ......." I was guilty of being lazy last night.
The loader valve is indeed a two spool, one with locking center and the arms having an open one. (being lazy again, sorry)

Thank you everyone.
 

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Thanks jayvee43 !

jayvee43 The "aviator" you use, tractor with loader is one I found somewhere. I made a copy of the picture and did what I could to analyze what was done to the tractor. She is a beauty.
:thanku:
 

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Mblust,

Too your question of "how much is too much $", or "how much is it worth?" I try to analyze it like this:

Can I built it for what the seller is asking, or less? Or will it take more time in the shop to do the build than it is worth? Never easy, as things like loaders are invaluable to some folks , myself included. I have this running thought in my mind that if I cannot build it for less than what the owner is asking, then the purchase price is just fine , not that I would be foolish about it, ( sometimes :00000060::duh: ) LOL

There sure are some nice custom built loaders that folks here have made, are they worth it monetarily? I doubt it, but are they worth every penny for the work they do ? You bet, as it is really hard to put a monetary figure on a sense of accomplishment and a job well done.

Some mods on that loader will probably work out just great, and you'll no doubt be happy with it. If not, I'll eat my words and hopefully we'll have learned from the process.
 

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Personally I would leave the case hydraulic system alone and add a 2nd pump off of front PTO. You could make a mount for the pump to work with the snap hitch off of the front fairly easily. It could just snap on/off as you take the loader on/off.

OR what you could do if you wanted to use the case system you could install a 3 way meetering valve/ flow restricter on the line going off of the case system and to the loader controlls that would limit the GPM to the loader to what it requires and then dump the excess back into the case return line. That way you don't have to worry about trying to push too much through the loader.
 

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Bob, Case GTs use open center valves.
You're right, the valves on the tractor are open center because you're dealing with motors and don't want to have the tractor or implement stop abruptly. The ones on the loader have to be closed center to hold the load up. :fing32:

They are, however, open circuit, the same as the Case valves.

"Center" is in reference to the work ports and "circuit" is for the supply and return lines.
 

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A piece of equipment is either designed as a open center system or a closed center system. Open center systems have constant flow and variable pressure. Closed center systems have constant pressure and variable flow ( the pump shuts off when the pressure is reached). Case GTs are open center. All valves always have oil going out when there is oil going in. If flow stopped the pump would break. Gregg
 

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I think you're confusing closed center with closed circuit. The Case hydraulic sytem uses open center valves to prevent damage from shock loads when the valve is centered. This allows the motor and its load to slowly stop (relatively) when the valve is centered. Those same valves are also open circuit to allow oil to pass through them on its way from the pump to the reservoir without hindrance while they are in the center position.

A FEL requires closed center valves in order to hold a load. It also requires open circuit valves, just as the tractor, to allow the oil to flow from pump to tank via the valve set with no impedance.

Center and circuit are 2 separate functions of all control valves and each can be either open or closed. Most mobile hydraulic systems, and all GT hydraulic systems, use open circuits. Whether the valve is open or closed when it is centered is dependant on the results desired.

I flat guarrantee that you would not be happy trying to use a Case travel valve on a FEL, and that you would be just as unhappy using a loader valve set in place of that travel valve, and yet they are both open circuit with free flow of the oil through them.

Here is a manual on the principles of hydraulics. Section 5.2 deals with directional valves and Figures 5-25 and 5-26 shows the difference between open and closed centers.

http://www.edgeroamer.com/sweethaven/mechanics/hydraulics01/

And this is a handy troubleshooting and reference aid.

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html

There is a lot of really good information on these links. Enjoy.
 

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And section 2.1 tells you the difference between a open center system and a closed center system. A closed center valve will not work on a Case gt loader valve. Quite often you can buy multi spool valves to use on loaders that have a cartridge to add or remove to become open or closed. Maybe we just havea terminallogy dissagreement.
 
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