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Bingo.... mouse turds.


Bottom line... please help me out here.
Here are a few photos so you know what I'm talking about. shows a newly installed OEM plastic ring and also the new updated solid aluminum ring. Chevy and Ford trucks since 1985 use a hydrid that's diffferent then both, but I don't get into all that. When new, that plastic ring is white or clear color. Once it gets a few years old, it turns almost black. When it falls apart, all you find is little black bits inside the pump - thus my term of "mouse turds."

The photo showing the very worn rivet is what happens to a pump that gets run a long time after the plastic ring has broken - which might be your case.
The OEM plastic ring fastens two steel plates together via many rivets. The plastic absorbs vibration. When it breaks, the rivets start to hammer and hit each other. Eventually, if run too long, they break off and metal runs through the pump.

By the way, I'm not trying to discourage you from sending the pump out to a shop. Problem is however, the most now adays do not fix pumps on a case-by-case basis. Most will just charge you a very high flat-rate price. Most pumps that only require $25 in parts and an hour's time on the bench, get price tags for up to $800 - and that is rediculous. If you can find a small shop actually willing to fix your pump as needed with a shop rate of somewhere around $80 an hour, it would be worth it.
 

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mhrischuk,

Now you're cooking, figured if we kept bumping someone would chime in - looks like you've found the right folks. I wish I had seen that pump - I did not know it was a Stanadyne - had one of them in a Chevy Van years ago....yes, and I had problems with it too!
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
The inlet does have a spring loaded valve at the bottom. When I blew compressed air I could hear and feel it move.. and snap back. All looks good on that end.

I'll call USdiesel tomorrow and order up the parts.
Pictures are worth a thousand words but the words you've given are just as valuable. I see you've been posting this stuff on many sites. I was just concerned I got the correct stuff for my particular pump.

Thanks again.

Cubmon,

I liked your statement..
"Diesel engines are a critter and will make themselves known with a trail...."

Mike
 

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mhrischuk,

I wish I had seen that pump - I did not know it was a Stanadyne - had one of them in a Chevy Van years ago....yes, and I had problems with it too!
Yeah, after Chevy, GMC, Oldsmobile, and Ford starting using those pumps under the hoods of cars and small trucks, many new problems popped up. Some consumer related, some higher underhood temps related, and probably more.

Funny thing is, the rotary pumps pretty much started with Vernon Roosa's invention in the early 1950s (AKA Stanaydne "Roosamaster). Stanadyne then sold license to all the other companies to copy the design to use in Europe. That includes Lucas, CAV, Bosch, Rotodiesel, Diesel Kiki, etc. So how come all those licensed "copies" are more reliable then the original ??

And, to be fair, there were two competing rotary pumps early 50s. Roosa's pump design and also "AMBAC" or "American Bosch." But, American Bosch got ripped aprart during World War II and most US based assets siezed - similar to what happened to Stihl chainsaws in Germany. Both companies were suspected of working with Hitler. After this, the Bosch in Europe became totally separate from AMBAC in the USA, and used Roosa's basic design for their rotary DPA pump that you see on many tractors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
Bosch and Siemens have pretty much taken over at least on the automotive side of things.

My truck (Dodge Cummins) uses Bosch HPCR. Almost 100,000 miles without issue.

Should I be running an additive?
 

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Should I be running an additive?
I've heard and read conflicting information on that. I know that the 'new' fuels are sulfur free and I understand that some of the lubricating qualities of diesel fuel are also reduced. Injections pumps suffered when the 'EPA' fuel first came about....I have always used a small amount of ATF in a tank fill up... but that's me....

Bill
 

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Bosch and Siemens have pretty much taken over at least on the automotive side of things.

My truck (Dodge Cummins) uses Bosch HPCR. Almost 100,000 miles without issue.

Should I be running an additive?
I'm going to assume that any automotive with a common-rail injection system like your's was designed with ultra-low sulfur fuel in mind. The only proven issues I know of are with the rotary mechanical pumps. The in-line mechanical pumps deal with low-lube fuel much better then rotaries, and with common-rail, it's supposed to be a non-issue.

My 92 Dodge with the 5.9 Intercooled Cummins and rotary Bosch has a little over 400K miles on it and the pump has never been off. The timing advance got very sluggish around 100K miles ago, but I cheated, loosened the pump body, and physically advanced it. So yeah, that's not the proper fix, and what I did also changes the static timing. But it's been fine ever since. The next model year, i.e. 1993 Dodge would have the more durable in-line pump. But what is "durable." The reality is, with proper fuel, the major hard parts in any of these pumps can last over 1,000,000 miles. I'm not sure the common rail systems can last that long, but I'm no expert on them.

The proven-by-testing facts boil down to this. Ultra-low sulfur diesel does not have the level of lube that the mechanical rotary pumps were designed for. It's not so low that a pump will burn right out, but may shorten pump life by a factor of a 1/3 or 1/4. Not sure anybody knows for sure. But, let's say it cuts the life in half. Who the heck would ever notice? If, let's say the bulk of the pump could last 1,000,000 miles with high lube fuel. OK. Now let's say with ultra-low, it's only going to last 500,000 miles. I doubt anybody will every know the difference. On the road, purely mechanical pumps haven't been used since the 90s (except for our military Humvees). So, most if not all being used now already have high miles and have been "patched up" many times. I know that many believe these pumps get "rebuilt" when they go to the pump shops. Not true. Most of the times, the majority of hard parts get used over and over and over, with no renewal process. So, let's say you buy a "rebuilt" pump today. You use it, and 20K miles from now it dies. The parts in it may already have over 500K miles on them, so what are you going to blame the failure on??

The big issue with rotary pumps is the distributor section of the pump that is very sensitive to poor fuel, temperature extremes, etc. In-line pumps don't have distributors. Our military still uses mechanical Stanadyne pumps on the Humvees, and uses low-lube military fuel, and has many failures at low miles.

The tests go this way. Stanadyne called for fuel with enough lube in it to allow no more then a 460 micron wear-scar in metal testing. The old fuel surpassed that and protected beyond that limit. The new low-sulfur diesel is supposed to now protect to a limit of 520 microns. That allows too much wear by Stanadyne standards. Also, the low sulfur fuel is lower then that when it is "cooked" to remove sulfur. Companies that produce fuel are required to put in additives to bring the lube back up. So, it's also a matter of how trusting you are. The reality is, there isn't a lot of concern now adays for equipment built 20-50 years ago.

In regard to addtives, according to one good test I read, ATF does next to nothing. On the other hand, two-stroke-cycle-oil works well and is cost effective.

Walmart Supertech Outboard motor two-stroke oil, when added to diesel at a 1 to 200 ratio, lowered the wear by 162 microns, which is a lot.

Shell Rotella 15W-40 motor oil added at a 1 to 200 ratio did just about nothing (2 micron improvement).

ATF came out about the same as the Shell Rotella motor oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Ahh a Cummins in your repertoire... I'm not surprised. Those P7100 inline pumps were the chit. 98.5 was the most sought out year.

Here's my baby..

 

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I think you mean the '98 12 valve. The '98.5 introduced the VP44 pump with its history of problems. IMO, this was a step backwards until the CR engines became available in 2003.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I think you mean the '98 12 valve. The '98.5 introduced the VP44 pump with its history of problems. IMO, this was a step backwards until the CR engines became available in 2003.
I guess pre- 98.5. The VP44 was an emissions crapjob

Lot's of east coast people here I see. Where at in PA are you from? I'm Delaware County close to the Delaware State line off I-95
 

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Ahh a Cummins in your repertoire... I'm not surprised.
Mine is no where near as fancy. Almost pure stock 1992, 4WD, extended cab, intercooled 5.9. 3.50 axles with a five-speed Gertrag. Only thing I changed is I added a 4" Stans exhaust when the original systems fell off. Also added a 50 gallon tank under the rear, so it holds 80 gallons in all.

Best truck I've ever owned. Rides a little rough, but it's never skipped a beat and still gets 18-20 MPG down the highway when empty. Also outpulls my Ford diesel F250 with a trailer is behind it. And the Ford has 4.10 axles and 7.3 turbo, which ought to give it a huge advantage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Love the first gens. When you pull up, people look and listen.
Even though my third gen is supposed to be quieter.. the mods change it a bit. I run 5" exhaust with a straight through muffler. Not obnoxiously loud but it is loud.

Then there's the smoke under acceleration .... then the train horn...

 

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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
Spaco site... FYI

http://www.rased.it/rased/brick/products

I was checking part numbers.

They give two choices for the rebuild kit:
24371 6886 O'HAUL KIT RM-DB.JDB STANADAYNE (ROOSA) O'HAUL REPAIR KITS
24371 V 6886 O'HAUL KIT RM-DB.JDB STANADAYNE (ROOSA) O'HAUL REPAIR KITS

Two for the pilot tube:
16320 6742 PILOT TUBE-MIDDLE BUSH STANADAYNE (ROOSA) BUSHES
16320 S 12690 MIDDLE BUSH-PILOT TUBE STANADAYNE (ROOSA) BUSHES

Torx bit tool:
24992 12637 TORX BIT INSERT STANADAYNE (ROOSA) TOOLS

Still looking for part numbers for the following.. I will be calling USDiesel this morning.

New regulating valve - around $7
Updated solid governor drive (if wanted) - around $50
(I see no governors listed at SPACO)
Fuel pump blades (mabye) - around $15
 

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Spaco site... FYI

Still looking for part numbers for the following.. I will be calling USDiesel this morning.

New regulating valve - around $7
Updated solid governor drive (if wanted) - around $50
(I see no governors listed at SPACO)
Fuel pump blades (mabye) - around $15
The updated solid governor ring that I got was OEM Stanadyne, #2043. Actually, I've installed three of them since and all worked fine. When I got the first one, I was a little perplexed. That because I had asked for the updated part that began to be used in 1985 on cars and trucks, and it's not what they sent me. Cars and trucks got updated to an "EID". That stands for "Elastomer Insert Drive." It's not solid, and it doesn't have a plastic ring to break, but it does have rubber cushions in it. So, I don't know if it was discontinued, or what - but I guess it doesn't matter. Maybe it costs more and was only used in the automotive DB2 pumps? I've installed three of the solid aluminum #2043 and all have run fine. No vibration, no problems. Makes me wonder why Stanadyne ever used that old plastic ring to start with. Especially since their other model pumps did not have it at that time.

The housing-regulator-check-valve is # 15830

Also make sure you check your pump vanes in the back of the injection pump. It is the #1 wear item when run on low sulfur fuel. They may be available separate and in a kit; I haven't checked lately. There are four vanes and two little springs. These were the numbers a year or so ago.

By the way, I've had zero problems with aftermarket Spaco parts from Italy. Keep in mind that USA Stanadyne also makes many of it's parts in the same area of Italy.

JDB pump vanes - kit # 20803 - Spaco # 09528
 

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Re: I gave wrong number . . .

The updated solid governor ring that I got was OEM Stanadyne, #2043.
You better call and verify the parts numbers. I just got looking at some of my records - and they are proof that I am a lousy record keeper. I've got numbers all over the place. I know I paid around $44 for the solid ring, but I think I gave you the wrong number. I do recall is was OEM and came in a Stanadyne box.

I'm almost 100% sure now that the part number was Stanadyne # 29111 and cost $44.

Last machine I had to fix was a Deere 300B backhoe. I used the #24371 seal kit, # 16320 bushing, #15830 regulator-valve, and #29111 updated solid drive ring in the governor.

The only part the Deere still sells with a Deere part # is the Stanadyne #15830 regulator valve. Deere sells it as R36535 and charges 2-3 times as much.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Just called it in. They are verifying part numbers and price/availability. The fellow was familiar with the gov part number and said he believed that was the correct number.
 

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Here's another slant:::::

10- CAN AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID (ATF) BE ADDED TO THE DIESEL FUEL TO INCREASE LUBRICITY AND TO HELP CLEAN ENGINE DEPOSITS?
It is not a good practice and likely will cause far more problems than it could solve. Using ATF in this way is something of an "old truckers tale" and has been used on everything from Volkswagens to Class 8 trucks. Another erroneous strategy is to add old or new engine oil for lubricity. The problem with these "additives" is they are specifically designed to resist high temperatures and burning. As a result, if they are added to diesel fuel they leave behind ash, heavy metals, and other deposits that can easily cause costly damage to fuel injectors and other sensitive engine components. The best practice is to use quality diesel fuel additives like Stanadyne’s Performance Formula. They are designed to clean and lubricate engine components without leaving behind residues that can be hazardous to your engine’s health. The bottom line is, don’t add anything that is not specifically designed to be combusted in the engine. :Stop:

http://www.diamonddiesel.com/fueladditives/ffaq-2.html#10
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 · (Edited)
I agree with that.

Just talked to US Diesel about the IP parts. They had everything in stock except the wrench. That comes in Thurs so early next week I'll get into the pump.

Any advice on taking the pump out? Should I line up marks before removing?

Here's what they quoted for my IP JDB431 MD3 027 2500

Blade Set 32768 $13.32
Valve 15830 $13
Pilot Tube 16320 $8.14
Rebuild Kit 24371 $13.39
Governor Metal 29111 $45.37
Wrench $15

Total $108.22

I also ordered the manual SM 2045 $45 shipped
Picked up a RE42211 fuel pump New on ebay $61.96
This one is like the stock one. Not rebuildable but looks identical to stock.

Total damage $215.18

When done I'll still have the book and the tool.

I saw prices from $600 to $900 for a rebuilt IP. Plus I prob had to pay to ship the core.
 

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I agree with that.

Just talked to US Diesel about the IP parts. They had everything in stock except the wrench. That comes in Thurs so early next week I'll get into the pump.

Any advice on taking the pump out? Should I line up marks before removing?

Here's what they quoted for my IP JDB431 MD3 027 2500

Blade Set 32768 $13.32
Valve 15830 $13
Pilot Tube 16320 $8.14
Rebuild Kit 24371 $13.39
Governor Metal 29111 $45.37
Wrench $15

Total $108.22

I also ordered the manual SM 2045 $45 shipped
Picked up a RE42211 fuel pump New on ebay $61.96
This one is like the stock one. Not rebuildable but looks identical to stock.

Total damage $215.18

When done I'll still have the book and the tool.

I saw prices from $600 to $900 for a rebuilt IP. Plus I prob had to pay to ship the core.
There's a master spline on the pump shaft but you need to set the engine on number one - rock the rocker arms on the companion cylinder - 4. The IP turns at half crankshaft speed. ( turn the engine in rotation, the #4 exhaust valve will open, then begin to close and the intake will begin to open - rocked is where the two rockers are sitting equal - that is exhaust coming down and intake going up) That will insure that you don't install the pump 180 degrees out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
A friend told me if I bring up the mark in the site window of the IP all I have to do in re-install it with the mark in the same place. This is based on not turning the engine once the pump is pulled. Is that an option? That way I won't have to pull the valve cover... mess... gasket.
 
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