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JD 165 Hydro Driving Me Crazy

9K views 34 replies 11 participants last post by  KATT 
#1 ·
Hi everyone....i've seen how helpful everyone here is and hope someone can give me some suggestions. Here is what I've got.

I bought an older but in relatively good condition JD 165 hydro from a guy around the corner. He was the only owner, had it serviced by the local JD dealer every spring. One day it wouldn't start. He took it to the dealer...they got it going, he brought it home and mowed the lawn. The next time he goes to mow, no start again....back to the dealer, and this time he goes home with an X300. (I know the dealer....they rather sell than fix) So i bought it, I don't mind a winter project....

Everything seems to be working right, but it just won't start. It gives nice puffs of smoke through the carb when the air cleaner is off.

So I start with the basics...spark? Check...just in case i got a new plug...still doesn't start, but now really pops back through the carb. Check the fuel, pump works great and plug is soaking wet....just in case give a shot of gas in the carb and in the spark plug hole....nothing. Compression...90 pounds. Pull all the shrouds off and check the flywheel key...which is good, and the coil air gap...good. Pull of the head...check cylinder...seems to leak a tiny bit of oil with each stroke from around the piston...and check the valves...intake doesn't have enought clearance (just) so pull the spring and valves, lap them, adjust clearances and reinstall.....

At this point I figure i'm good so reassemble everything and give it a whirl....same popping through carb....agggghhhh. This time, I give a shot of oil in the intake.. (saw somewhere that this can sometimes seal a bad intake valve long enough to start engine...and help diagnose the same)...no change.

Went out and bought a cylinder leak down tester (the nice part about working on things yourself...the ability to justify new tools :)
Did a leak down test...can hear whistling through the carb...nothing through muffler, but when i pull the top off the dipstick I have a oil volcano.

Pull it all apart again...maybe i made a mistake....check valves seating...seems to be good to me (i checked with a feeler gauge and by backlighting them in a dark garage) They seem to be seating perfect.

I'm stumped. I'm inclined to rip apart the engine and see if maybe the camshaft is out a tooth (bad timing). I've also been considering the spark....maybe its worth it to try a new coil before i rip it down totally. And then the leakdown test...how am i hearing air through the carb and past the rings if i have 90 pounds compression....should i just do a rebuild?

Sorry about the length of this post...any input would be greatly appreciated.

G
 
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#3 · (Edited)
How strong is the spark? I've had 2 coils lately that could barely jump a spark over .020. Anything more and nothing. May want to check that. The tool is real cheap to buy that simulates pressure in the cylinder, that effects it too. Here is a link to one similar to mine. http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Automotive/Spark_Testers/LIS50850.htm
The Kawa engines are pretty solid performers IMO, but I've never had one apart so I can't comment on how it could have jumped time. Good luck.
Also , don't run out and buy a coil until you know for certain. Kawa parts are really pricey. If that's what the 165 has in it. A hydro 175 I worked on for years had a 14hp Kawa engine.
 
#4 ·
You can do the same test wit a screwdriver.

Put the screwdriver in the wire spar plug hold the screwdriver close to the engine head or engine block (don't touch the steel part of the screwdriver with your hand) and crank the engine.

You should be able to see spark from 1/8" to 1/4" ( car go up to 1/2") and hear the tic tic sound of the spark.

 
#5 ·
Well, I'm not really much help when it comes to deciding whether to do a rebuild or not, but here's a link to a pdf of the tech service manual for that engine for ya, its been invaluable to me in messing with my 160.
 
#7 ·
Muffler doesn't get hot, but it does backfire through the carb. The 90 pounds is after cranking for approx 2 seconds....maybe i'm doing that wrong? I thought valves too, but nothing seems incorrect according to the engine manual...
 
#8 · (Edited)
Are you checking the valve lash with the springs on? When the springs are on, the lash is decreased. Either way that compression is very high. The maximum reading is the maximum reading. Was there a build up of carbon on the head, valves and piston? I had a similar problem. The backfire was through the carb, my valve was not opening enough. Your problem is not internal, it would have shut down abruptly for your neighbor. Probably major internal damage if that would have happened.
 
#9 ·
Ok i'll take the springs off and rip of the head and give this another check....just as a side note, is the ignitor on these engines (FB460V Kawi) a go or no go item, or can they be intermittant. Could i show spark outside the engine, but not under compression due to a bad ignitor? I'm leary of shelling out the 89 bucks on a non returnable part....
 
#11 ·
Some say it is some say it is not. I have had spark with a "bad" one but it would not test out. A good one will give you numbers when you test it. Check section 2-3 in the pdf. It gives the numbers. This is if you have some sort of multimeter. If you would like you could look at this: http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=156615

I am very familiar with a kawi that does not want to start. In the end it was a sheared flywheel key. Another suggestion. The key may not be sheared, just a bit sloppy. Keep posting what you come up with.

An after thought, is there any metal in the oil? Something wierd may have happened where the key on the crank shaft that holds the timing gear to the cam got sheared. It is not a big deal to pull the case off and look. I did mine without removing the valve springs. Not suggested, it can work.
 
#12 ·
I've tested it as per the numbers in the pdf for this engine. They aren't even close to what they should be...the coil checks out....maybe i'm missing something easy here...i'm assuming the + / - is where the prongs of the multimeter tester are (the case or the terminal) What does the ON 10 Ohm to 40 Ohm mean though? Am I supposed to have something ON? Is this supposed to be tested grounded to the block or independent of the engine? Thanks for all your help everyone i'll get this think licked yet!!
 
#15 ·
I was unable to meet the numbers either. But, a working igniter/exciter gave me numbers that held. The non-working one did not. The bad one started out at a number and went down to 0 in a matter or 10-15 seconds. I tested mine on the bench. This part is for me to possibly be corrected. Your igniter/exciter, coil and stator creat their own electricity. You (battery) only feed electricity to your starter or other aftermarket devices. (lights, radio, heater, etc) Battery is charged by the stator. Spark plug is charged by the coil and the ignitor/exciter.

"With regards to the flywheel it easily comes on and off...does this indicate a sloppy key? Should i need to pull / pry it every time?"
If it was torqued correctly, you should have to use a puller every time. The less time there is between removal, it will be easier.
 
#14 ·
Boy-- That neighbor saw you coming!! I hope you didn't pay much for the tractor! The flywheel shouldn't come off easily.. aka- by hand.. If it does I suspect something is afoot.. How dies the crank/keyway area look? Does the key fit into it tightly and the key is straight/ shows no sign of partial shearing? As far as the compression goes I don't know if that engine has ACR so it may be OK.. Try a compression test with the thing spinning backwards and look for an improvement. (don't open the oil cap) If none then your rings could be stuck/bad.. If so you gotta get into it.. Check the timing and internals carefully if/when you do.. :goodl:
 
#16 ·
Ok...so I just finished relapping the intake valve and checking the lash..now it's all good. Put it all back together...for the umpteenth time..and no go...it just sputters harder now, but now its out of both the carb and the muffler. I checked the flywheel key again...it's not sloppy at all. I double checked compression...now i'm 100+.

So now the intake valve and the timing are basically ruled out (now that it's backfiring out of both ends :) The sparkplug is still wet so we are good for fuel.

I decided to go with BOSOX and stladrill and double check the spark strength....and i think we may have the culprit. When i test it by holding the plug near the head and cranking over i only the the odd random spark unless i'm almost touching the head. I'm going to go out on a limb and blame the coil. The only thing that bothers me is that it checks out as per the Kawi tech manual specs. The ignitor just gives me 27 KOhm no matter which way i test it. When i unplug it i'm totally sparkless...i'm going to assume this means that it works. Has anyone ever had a coil that checkout out but was just really weak?

Thanks so much everyone...i feel I'm getting closer!!
 
#17 ·
I am still wondering why your compression is so high. Can you turn the motor over by hand with the plug in? Mine tests at about 58 and I can just get the compression stroke to turn with both hands on the screen on the flywheel. I am an average guy, average strength. My opinion though. 100 pounds you probably can't turn it over by hand.

I think someone else had the same issue with a coil. Dealer told them it checked out a couple of times. It was ultimately the problem. Have you checked your flywheel magnets? The manual tells how. It is sparking occasionally, just not every time. Or... as I type I am looking at the manual, does the plug wire have any breaks in it? Could be shorting on the way to the plug.

Be positive, we will get you through this.
 
#22 ·
SHE RUNS!!!!

So I dropped by my local small engine guy to order the coil. (Great guy...always ready to sit down and give advise / info...just like you guys on here) Anyway he says that if the spark is weak and some of the symptoms were pointing to timing it's most likely the ignitor. AAAAHHHHH!!! Apparently the ignitor can work (ie you can get spark) but it can be not performing its function (Kawi uses it instead of a points system). He could order one but since it would be a couple of days suggested i go to the dealer. I picked one up (86.00$) put it on after work and...nothing....i was bummed...than i realized that i forgot to connect the primary on the coil after testing it last time.... :fing20: Anyway..connect that and it fires right up!!!

Thanks everyone for all your help...you guys are amazing!!

While i was doing all this I also disassembled the tractor / deck and painted everything. (to maintain my optimism) :) I'll post pictures when I have it all back together ...unfortunately not this weekend...the honey do list has apparently been neglected and happy wife = happy life :)

Thanks again everyone!!! :thanku:
 
#25 ·
Post the pics unassembled, now !! Assembled later
 
#31 ·
NIICE!

One thing I noticed from the picture about your bagger chute hookup, the metal strap that you have on the end of the chute is actually supposed to fit over the spot where you have the clip on the end of the rubber strap hooked... So metal strap goes over the spot there, clip hooks in there to keep the metal strap from coming off... They do this because (I assume) when the mower is in operation, there's enough vibration to shake the chute off the discharge...

I never thought of putting the bagger chute on without removing the existing cover, I didn't know it would fit! (I'll have to look at mine as my bagger chute appears to be somewhat different from yours... or at least MUCH grungier). I've always just undone the cotter pin on the discharge cover hinge and pulled it off...
 
#32 ·
I never thought of putting the bagger chute on without removing the existing cover, I didn't know it would fit! (I'll have to look at mine as my bagger chute appears to be somewhat different from yours... or at least MUCH grungier). I've always just undone the cotter pin on the discharge cover hinge and pulled it off...
That's the lawyers again. If you go from bagging to mowing without the discharge deflector you'll can end up spraying gravel like an Uzi and then somebody loses an eye and then JD gets sued for not outsmarting you...
 
#35 · (Edited)
Looking good!! looks almost new !!



EVEN Rusty's chute arrived the same way:ROF
 
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