International 3414 w/3121 hoe issues

Just some more info. about this. I did change the fluid and made sure it was full to the top. I did that right away, as I knew it had water in it by the white milky color. After posting this, I spent HOURS researching my issue. Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that I may have an issue with a valve(s)? I am beginning to think that a relief valve or spool valve is acting stupid? I imagine that tearing all the spool valves apart would be a good idea and rebuilding them? While I have never done this, the only way to learn is to do it?, Lol

1 week ago I knew very little about hydraulics. I now know enough to be really dangerous! I have run lots of equipment over the years and used many devices that utilize it to function and had a slight understanding of how it worked. Oh well, every day is an adventure!

Ok, it may seem silly to keep posting in my own thread, BUT, today I was trying to run the hoe again, and to my surprise, I noticed hydraulic oil running out from under the valves on the same side that is giving me issues. I am sure this isn't good, Lol I guess I will just tear it apart and see where the issues is? If anyone has even a clue about this, PLEASE let me know!:howdy:

superdog1 said:

Ok, it may seem silly to keep posting in my own thread, BUT, today I was trying to run the hoe again, and to my surprise, I noticed hydraulic oil running out from under the valves on the same side that is giving me issues. I am sure this isn't good, Lol I guess I will just tear it apart and see where the issues is? If anyone has even a clue about this, PLEASE let me know!:howdy:

Click to expand...

The hydraulics on these IH hoes are unlike any I've ever seen. I was a heavy-equipment mechanic for 50 years, so I'm not new to hydraulic systems. That being said, the system used on your hoe (and one of mine) is the most convoluted thing I've ever come across on a backhoe.

All I can tell you is . . study the hydraulic schematic very carefully and test each hoe function and see if the problem is isolated to certain ones. There are some "cross-over" valves inside that valve-bank-pack that can cause strange problems and new ones cost a fortune IF you can even find them. Also anti-cavitation valves in a few.

If you find a hoe function that labors the engine when lifting, you might have a broken/jammed anti-cavitation-valve. IH Komatsu part # 387229R91. Still available from Komatsu and costs a fortune like all the IH parts they sell.

I've got a 3414 with a 3121 hoe on it parked 800 miles from where I live. So, I don't get a lot of time to work on it an diagnose problems - but it's had some weird ones in the hoe and that twin-pump system.

Here's one for you. When my hoe gets hot -the hoe boom gets slower and slower and finally will not raise at all. BUT - if I crank on a swing-lever at the same time as when I pull on the boom lever it takes off and works fine. Note that the boom uses the big front pump and the swing uses the little pump mounted on the side of the engine. So, this seems to make NO sense. But if you look closely at the hydraulic schematic, you'll see they're interconnected and I don't mean by the diverter-valve.

By the way, are you running your's with the hydraulic filter in place? I've heard many complaints from 3414 owners with hoes complaining they will NOT work with the filter -even if new and it has to be removed.

superdog1 said:

The filter is in place. Would it be easier to just install new valves on the unit and be done with it?

Click to expand...

Where the heck would you ever find new valves? Even used, they're not easy to find, and if you do - how will you know if they're any good?

The hydraulic schematic is in the 3414 manual. I think the manual for this machine is a must-have because it is so unconventional. Note that IH is kind of funny with manuals. There are a pile of small manuals jammed together to cover the whole machine.

Here's a photo of my 3121 hoe when I first got it. The owner had used it for years with a couple of nails jammed into the worn collar-spines. As you can see, the collar and splined shaft are flush.

Thank you VERY much for the photos!. I thought it wasn't right? There is a big nut at the bottom of the shaft that looks like it is coming lose, hence the shaft dropping down a 1/2 an inch.

As far as valves are concerned, I was thinking about using after market valves from Prince or something? The hoe won't care what valves are making it work, just so the valves get pressure off and on? Maybe my brain is thinking along the wrong train of thought? You would know much better than I! I knew you said that getting new ones from IH or Komatsu were out of the question, so if I can not rebuild the old ones, I will have no other option but to do this? I would hate to sell it for scrap!, Lol

What are the chances of finding them over seas? I have a friend in the UK, so maybe that would be an option? I know that you mentioned purchasing a pump in Scotland, so perhaps there is a much better availability over there?:dunno:

superdog1 said:

As far as valves are concerned, I was thinking about using after market valves from Prince or something? The hoe won't care what valves are making it work, just so the valves get pressure off and on? Maybe my brain is thinking along the wrong train of thought?

Click to expand...

You are way better off fixing what you have. The valves themselves rarely go "bad." There are just individual parts in them that may need repair or replacement. You need to find out what is wrong and go from there. If there is anything inside your stack of control valves that makes the machine "labor" and work hard - you'll be able to fix it without tearing that huge valve stack out. All the small pieces that might cause trouble come out pretty easy (pressure relief valves, anti-cavitation valves, etc.).

Even if this was a more conventional backhoe, you would not want to attempt to replace that entire stack of valves. With this unconventional IH? Forget it? Not without an awful lot of work for a product that when done, it not going be very good. I have no idea what the heck IH was thinking when they made the hoe to run off of two separate hydraulic systems. They must of had a reason, but I've got no idea what it was. My Ford hoe is nice and simple with one pump and a diverter valve -for either the front loader or the backhoe. My huge Pettibone backhoe also has a single pump with an automatic flow divider to the backhoe and front loader work all the time. My Deere backhoe has closed-center hydraulics and one pump, so the loader an hoe work all the time. But this IH?? Just plain weird! Two pumps, manual diverter-valve, etc. etc. But - when in good shape - it's a good working backhoe. The 3414 tractor is British - so maybe that is where the weirdness comes from.

jdemaris said:

You are way better off fixing what you have. The valves themselves rarely go "bad." There are just individual parts in them that may need repair or replacement. The 3414 tractor is British - so maybe that is where the weirdness comes from.

Click to expand...

If I understand it correctly, the tractor itself was made in England but the hoe and front loader are American/Canadian made. Just a guess, but I would say that when they tried to hook up the hoe to the tractor, the main pump itself didn't have enough "umph" to make it work properly, so instead of just up-sizing the pump, they took advantage of what was there and integrated the smaller pump to work the swing function and stabilizers because they didn't need as many GPM to make them work. This would save them $$ perhaps???

Then again, I could be TOTALLY off track here, as I know nothing..........:dunno:

superdog1 said:

Just a guess, but I would say that when they tried to hook up the hoe to the tractor, the main pump itself didn't have enough "umph" to make it work properly, so instead of just up-sizing the pump, they took advantage of what was there and integrated the smaller pump to work the swing function and stabilizers because they didn't need as many GPM to make them work. This would save them $$ perhaps???

Click to expand...

Pump size shouldn't be the issue, but who knows?. The IH 3414 has the same basic size front pump as my Ford 4000 backhoe-loader, Case 580CK backhoe-loader, Deere 1010 loader-ripper, Deere 300B backhoe-loader, and Pettibone Multihoe backhoe-loader. All are approx. 2.1 to 2.5 cubic-inches-per-rev. That is a pretty standard HD backhoe and loader pump. In fact, I just had to make a new pump drive for my 3414 from Ford pump-drive parts. Ford, Deere, and Case all use the same 7/8" X 13 splines at the 3414. That is except for the very early 3414s that used a keyed shaft instead of a splined shaft.

It might be that the steering pump is set at a different pressure then the main hoe functions -and for some reason- IH chose to run just the swing and stabilizers at that different pressure.

I finally got all the manuals I need for this beast off the internet and good old ebay, so I "think" I am ready to do battle with this critter! It seems as though every time I start it another leak shows up! I really want to make this thing work. Once the motor is warmed up, the loader works great. The hoe digs too, but it is just a little bit to "choppy" for my liking. I guess I am spoiled by the other more modern hoes I have run? They were all so smooth and easy to work with.

I am starting to think that no matter what I fix or replace on it, it is still going to be a little rough when using it to dig? Maybe back in the day, all of the older hoes worked like this one and nobody knew any better?

I am picking up the rebuild kit for the carburetor today. I have no clue what the kit includes? I know it does not have the float, but I was told that it is no big deal because if that float is leaking, I can just solder the hole shut on it? While I think this will work? I do know that when you heat an object, the air inside it expands and when it cools, the air contracts. Wouldn't this make the float collapse and get smaller? I guess we will see.

It may also not have the needle valve included with it. If not, is there a way to re-condition the valve without ruining it so that it properly stops the gas from flowing in? Most of them are brass and when they wear down, they are done? I guess I could braze more brass back on it and then turn it down to the right size, but this seems like a LOT of trouble, AND, it may not work? Any thoughts?

I think you just convinced me to sell my gasser 3414.

Although... mine has a Henry hoe and it works just fine except for the swing tends to drift. Does yours have a cracked exhaust manifold? It seems like a common problem.

I would have to say no on the reconditioning of the float valve. I've never seen a carb kit that didn't come with one but who knows with these silly British things. If it doesn't come in the kit, you might want to dimensio the old one and see if you can get something else to match up. I've seen float valves on everything from cars to minibikes that are all pretty close to the same size.

Regarding the float itself, be careful trying to solder any holes shut. I tried to reinflate a collapsed float from my 404 and I ended up unsoldering the bracket that holds it to the carb. Luckily it was a Zenith and parts are easy to come by. You may not be so lucky.

superdog1 said:

I am picking up the rebuild kit for the carburetor today. I have no clue what the kit includes? I know it does not have the float, but I was told that it is no big deal because if that float is leaking, I can just solder the hole shut on it?

It may also not have the needle valve included with it.

Click to expand...

I doubt you need one, but new floats are available for British Zenith VN and VNN carbs. So are new throttle shafts.

Needle valves and seats are generic. You can always find one to fit. Since the BC144 engine is not gravity fed gas, the valve does not have to seal perfectly. For tractors with gravity fed gas, I alway use needles with soft Viton tips. Otherwise they tend to flood when shut off - unless you also turn the gas valve off.

I've had apart several of these carbs and so far - never needed anything but a few gaskets and a needle valve. Cleaned the jets, got the accelerator pump unstuck - and they worked fine. Hardest item to find is the odd-ball rubber hose that connects the carb to the air-cleaner. I had to make a few.

Well, to this point, I haven't touched the tractor. I realized that in order to get work done and get paid, I needed something a little more reliable AND transportable (my 3414 weighs 10,000 pds!!!). I searched Craigs list until I found a good deal on a Kubota B7800. It has a factory hoe on it with a sub frame and the bucket has the bolt on teeth option.

Anyways, I will get to the carb on this unit sooner or later. I have been told that fixing the float should be easy? Anyways, I also found that the pins on the topside of the loader near the steering wheel are wasted. It seems as though the prior owners didn't know what grease was? I also found out that the last guy to own it dug a basement with the loader (no teeth on the bucket!). By doing this, he really beat the crap out of the loader pins from slamming the bucket into the dirt. Without teeth on the bucket, this guys kidneys were probably jarred loose from all the impacts, Lol.

Before you sell your 3414, I would at least take it apart and see what it really needs? you may be surprised, as these units are pretty tough it seems and it may not need as much as you think? Please don't base your decision on my poor luck and/or choices. If I would have paid more attention before I bought it, it may not be in my driveway right now. I only paid $2600 for it, so even if I part it out and scrap the rest, I will still be OK.

superdog1 said:

Before you sell your 3414, I would at least take it apart and see what it really needs? you may be surprised, as these units are pretty tough it seems and it may not need as much as you think? Please don't base your decision on my poor luck and/or choices. If I would have paid more attention before I bought it, it may not be in my driveway right now. I only paid $2600 for it, so even if I part it out and scrap the rest, I will still be OK.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about selling it anyway. I don't really use it all that much, the hoe pins are almost all shot, Henry went out of business in the 60s so I'll never be able to find any parts for the hoe. The tractor itself is based on the British B414 and parts for THAT are pretty rare, too (don't even get me started on Lucas electronics). The clutch is soft, the fenders are missing, the front axle pivot needs repaired, gears 2 and 3 won't engage, the broken exhaust manifold I mentioned before... I could go on. Let's just say that I'd rather have the money to spend on other things. Since I have another loader tractor that I actually use all the time (and is a LOT lighter with a bigger bucket), I've only used the 3414 a couple times in the two years I've owned it. The only cool thing about it is the Drott 4-in-1 bucket but as cool as it is, it's really too small to do much good and the imperfect seal at the split limits what it can usefully carry. The last time I even started it was Sept of last year when I dug up some rocks in my side yard (see attached pic).

I guess I'm either talking myself into it or rationalizing it to myself. If I can sell it for a profit, then I'll put that money towards a better hoe. Something this heavy really should have a diesel engine (and some 3414s do). I'd really like to find a Case 580. Much more useful.

XM816 said:

The only cool thing about it is the Drott 4-in-1 bucket but as cool as it is, it's really too small to do much good and the imperfect seal at the split limits what it can usefully carry. The last time I even started it was Sept of last year when I dug up some rocks in my side yard (see attached pic).

I guess I'm either talking myself into it or rationalizing it to myself. If I can sell it for a profit, then I'll put that money towards a better hoe. Something this heavy really should have a diesel engine (and some 3414s do). I'd really like to find a Case 580. Much more useful.

Click to expand...

If you do decide to sell it?, I may be interested in buying that 4 in 1 bucket?. I could replace it with the one on my tractor so you could still sell the unit as a complete setup? I am not sure how I would get to MI to do the swap, Lol?

I also thought about buying a Case 580. My main problem is the weight of these units. I would be hauling this thing all over the place to get work done. It seems as though the State police are really cracking down on guys with trailers, ESPECIALLY guys with business logos on the side! In PA, your truck/trailer combo can not be over 26,000 pounds or you need a CDL. Some even say that the trailer can not weigh more than 10,000 pounds or you need a CDL? It is all very confusing and each person you ask gives a different answer? (And that is right from the State police themselves!!!!).

With all that in mind, I just bought the Kubota and a trailer with a 10,000 pound gross weight. My total weight with the trailer and the Kubota on it is less than 7,000 pounds, so I KNOW I am safe with the CDL thing. I think they can still fine me for the total weight and my windshield sticker, but that's another subject!

Anyways, I do understand everything that you are saying, and I do agree that finding parts is nuts. The only thing I have going for me is the fact we have a machine shop, so I can make just about any part I need (within limits......). Good luck with whatever you do

Thanks for the encouragement. :fing32:

As far as the CDL thing, MI is somewhat ambiguous and subject to interpretation. There are two definitions in MI law:

“Commercial vehicle” includes all motor vehicles used for the transportation of passengers for hire, or constructed or used for transportation of goods, wares or merchandise, and/or all motor vehicles designed and used for drawing other vehicles and not so constructed as to carry any load thereon either independently or any part of the weight of a vehicle or load so drawn.

Click to expand...

To me, this could be any vehicle under the sun. The other definition is a "commercial motor vehicle",

“Commercial motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; a motor vehicle, having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds; a motor vehicle with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more including a towed unit with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds; or a motor vehicle carrying hazardous material and on which is required to be posted a placard as defined and required under 49 C.F.R. parts 100 to 199. A commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle used exclusively to transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes.

Click to expand...

You might want to see if PA has a similar law.
Of course, the state police are going to interpret it the way that you get a ticket but I educated myself when I started driving my Deuce and I carry around a copy of both the state and federal definitions of commercial motor vehicle in my glove box.
The federal definition (FMCSR 390.5) is:

Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

Click to expand...

Regarding the Drott: if the guy coming to look at the hoe this Saturday doesn't buy it, I'd be happy to swap you for a straight bucket plus some cash. Don't know where in PA you are, but it's probably about a 8-10 hour drive.

Interesting info guys, I'm Thinking about buying a 1970 IH 3444 Utility tractor/loader in the spring. Someone has done me the favor of getting rid of the backhoe long ago and taking the hydraulic tank and lowering it onto the drawbar and filling it with concrete for a counter weight. I Think I will change the diverter valve and replace it with a straight dual valve from a salvage/surplus supplier . The original valve has plugs on the lineset for the backhoe. All I think I will need is the two sets for lifting the arm and Tipping the bucket. I also think That I should do away with the huge Hydraulic tank/counter weight and get a rack on there for removable plate weights. The old fella that has it now said he couldn't drive the tractor at all when he first got it because the tractor cavitated so bad and the weight would constantly bang on the ground. So I'm thinking the weight is too heavy, and when the bucket doesn't have a matching weight in it, it would bounce like crazy.. Does this sound right to you guys?
Also in the future I want to install one of the small KNORR brand logging grapples so I can do a little logging on my farm. So I think i will need a adaptor plate to line up the mounting gear.