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IH 3414 diesel with 3131 backhoe hydraulic questions.

Background info:
Picked up the tractor and owner said the hydraulics are slow. Got it home and checked the tank and it's very low. Hydraulics chattering when operated.

Steps performed:

1) Closed all cylinders on loader and backhoe. (pistons retracted completely)

2) Added hydraulic oil to tank within 2" of top of fill tube. (20wt)

3) Operate backhoe and loader, oil comes spewing out the top of tank.

4) Removed filter from tank,(Case/IH 471942R92) added more oil and operated loader and backhoe. They bled out quickly and ran smooth and fast. Perfection!

5) Installed new NAPA 1662 filter, added oil to tank, raised loader and as it was lowering oil started spewing out of vent on top of tank. What the...........

I have read in quite a few places that people don't have filters in their tanks, is this the reason why? I would rather run a filter but it seems it causes enough restriction on the supply to the pump to starve it. Is there another problem that is causing excessive gpm (too quickly) returning to the tank? When the filter is in place it seems to foam the oil vs. no filter, no foam.
Did it come originally with a screen basket rather than a paper element type filter?

I know it's a lot to read but I hope the info helps to resolve this issue.

Thanks!
 

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Update:
I ended up removing the filter from the tank and taking it for a test dig with the backhoe. Hydraulics worked well for 1/2 hour and then the main lift cylinder for the boom became weak and it sounded as though it was relieving. I removed the relief from the valve body on the far left ( looking from rear ) and found the screen on the bottom had quite a bit of crud on it. Cleaned the unit, installed it and it seems to be back to normal speed of operation. I am going to fabricate a screen basket to fit where the filter goes in the hydraulic tank and see how that works.
 

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Re: Cap MUST fit tight so suction works

IH 3414 diesel with 3131 backhoe hydraulic questions.

Background info:
Picked up the tractor and owner said the hydraulics are slow. Got it home and checked the tank and it's very low. Hydraulics chattering when operated.


3) Operate backhoe and loader, oil comes spewing out the top of tank.
I've got the NAPA (Wix) # 1662 in my 3414 and it's been working OK. When I got it, there was no filter in the tank. I just put in two new hydraulic pumps and did not want to run with no filter.

A couple of suggestions. #1, I bought my NAPA/Wix filter a over a year ago. Check with NAPA, have them call the tech-line, and find out if WIX changed the micron level for that filter.

Deere had many similar problems with their 23 and 28 GPM Cessna gear pumps flowing more then the filters could handle. Deere's first fix was a filter that was less fine and passed more oil. Deere's second fix was to recommend a thinner hydraulic oil. Standard Deere oil (combo trans and hydraulic) is 20W. They changed to 10W for problematic machines.

On your machine, how clean is the oil and what viscosity is it? One advantage Deere has over the IH is that Deere uses both a metal-screen suction filter, along with a micronic paper return filter. IH only uses the micronic return filter. So, the Deere can catch some of the bigger particles before the return filter gets them. IH can't. So, if the oil hasn't been filtered in a long time, it will probably plug a new filter pretty fast.

Another note. The hydraulic system in the IH 3414 relies on an air-tight cap. Since you stated your's overflowed, it sounds like it does not fit tight anymore?? IH states the filter system will malfunction unless that cap fits tight enough so the two hydraulic pumps actually put a suction on that filter and pull oil through it. If that cap is loose, you have to rely on gravity for the oil to fall through.

I'd fix or replace the cap (might just need a new gasket) and get it tight. Then put in new oil and make sure it's at least 20W, or better yet - 10W. Deere sells their's as wintergrade Hyguard.

As to return flow? It is a constant and will always be whatever the pump is pumping. It is a positive-displacement pump. 3414 flows around 17 gallons a minute at 2000 RPM. So, the filter, at 2000 RPM is always getting 17 GPM through it, unless you divert flow momentarilhy by using a hydraulic function somewhere. And, that is just the flow from the main hydraulic pump. That same filter also gets all the flow from the 7 GPM engine-mounted pump that runs the power steering, backhoe stabilizers, and backhoe swing.
 

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I read in one of my manuals that you are not suppose to actuate the hydraulics once you have turned of the engine, (dont lower the bucket).
Wonder why?
 

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I read in one of my manuals that you are not suppose to actuate the hydraulics once you have turned of the engine, (dont lower the bucket).
Wonder why?
A open-center, gear-type hydraulic pump is "positive displacment." I.e., when the gears are turning, the oil has to move accordingly or something breaks. So, I guess IH assume the opposite is true. That is, if you use a hydraulic funtion with the engine off, it demands oil from that pump - but . . . that pump is not free to spin in response. That because it is direct-coupled to a non-moving, non-running engine.

But in reality ?? I've got many loader, hoe and dozer machines with gear pumps, made by Pettibone, IH, Oliver, Deere, Case, and IH. At one time or another, I've lowered buckets, blades or hoe booms to the ground with the engine off and never hurt a thing. When you do so, it probably sucks some oil past the moving gears in the pump, trips a relief valve (maybe), or maybe just causes a little air to get into the cylinders involved.

I'll add that just because I've never witnessed any problem from it, that doesn't mean that maybe somewhere, a new tight machine may of somehow suffered from it. But, I doubt it. I was a Deere heavy equipment mechanic for 40 years and I never noticed it to be a problem in any brand of equipment. We sold and fixed Case, Allis Chalmers, IH, Ford, Oliver, Pettibone, Cat, Franklin, Timberjack, Melroes Bobcat, along with a few other odd-ball makes.

Some though, have an ignition-couple solenoid valve that prevents any hydraulic functions from working when the key is off. Especially in skid-steer loaders. But that is to prevent the loader from crushing the operator when climbing out of the seat.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the information. I thought the oil was coming out of the filler cap and maybe it is also, but when I lowered the bucket I actually saw it come out of what looks to be a vent possibly? It's located to the right of the fill cap and has approx. 10 holes on the bottom side of a mushroom shaped cap. Any ideas what this is and how it should function?

The oil in the system is 20 weight and at this point mostly new due to all of the above and hose changes!

I will call WIX and ask about any filter changes in construction.

Any suggestions for a source for a repair manual for this machine?

Thanks again for your help.
 

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when I lowered the bucket I actually saw it come out of what looks to be a vent possibly?

Any suggestions for a source for a repair manual for this machine?
Hydraulic oil is never going to pass through a filter unless it is either pressure fed, or sucked through. Too much flow for it to pass through just with gravity. IH describes the systems as using a "siphon" effect and must have a tight cap. True or not, I don't know. The main pump suction line is hooked to the bottom of tank and the bottom of that filter. From what you describe, seems there would have to me oil coming into the tank, than the pump is sucking out of the tank - which does not make sense.

I wish my 3414 was here so I could look and see, but I assume I have the same "vent" that you are seeing. I live in New York, and I have my 3414 parked in northern Michigan at another house I own. The parts book shows it as a "breather assembly", IH part # 398 983 R91.

In regard to manuals, when IH made them, all the info was not in one book. There were many "Blue Ribbon" books on the tractor, loader, backhoe, injection, hydraulics, etc.

Best bet is buy an aftermarket reprint that puts alll those books together. I have the Jensales reprints for mine. 3414 tractor-loader-backhoe service manual comes in two volumes, IH-S-3414 TLB. I also have a Jensales reprint operators manual for backhoes . The one book covers 3121,3131, and 3141 hoes. IH-O-3121+

Parts manuals are available reprint or IH original. Many all the time on Ebay. I've got the IH original TC-108 that covers the 3414 loader-tractor.
Backhoe parts books can often be found under the Dresser brand-name. Dresser and Komatsu both owned IH at one time (presently Komatsu). My Dresser book # PC-PT-H covers the entire series of hoes - 3082 A, 3120, 3121, 3130, 3131, and 3141.
 

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I contacted WIX and there have been no changes to the filter, still a 35 micron. I am going to remove the breather unit and check to see if it is setup as a breather / check valve assembly. Being as old as it is the check part may not be functioning as needed.

The tank is 12" deep overall height.

The filter tube in the tank is 11" , leaving a 1" gap to the bottom of the tank.

Filter tube has 3/16" + - holes on the sides.

When the filter is out and the oil level is low you can watch the oil going out that bottom hole below the filter with quite a bit of velocity.

When the filter is in and the oil level is higher you can watch the oil coming through those 3/16" holes in the side of the filter tube and feeding into the filter.

Thanks again for your help!
 

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The filter tube in the tank is 11" , leaving a 1" gap to the bottom of the tank.
Not that it matters much, but technically, the # 1662 filter is supposed to be 12" long, not 11".

Specs are: 35 micron, 11.56" high by 3.47" OD by 1.48" ID
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I should have clarified what I meant by filter tube. Not the filter element itself but the tube that is part of the tank that the filter slides down into. It is welded to the top of the tank inside right below the filler cap. Basically a dip tube. That is 11" long and stops 1" from the bottom of the tank.

I just got back in the house after removing the breather from the top of the tank. It has a 1/8" NPT nipple off the bottom which threads into the top of the hydraulic tank.
Mine looks as though it has been damaged since the bottom is now concave and slightly bent to one side. From what I can tell it looks like it has a disc inside which seats against the bottom of the vent which should stop flow out but allow air in to equalize pressure within the tank due to temperature changes.

Now I need to find one. Someone told me the name of a place in N.H. but the name has escaped me. I've googled that part# and I come up with a whole lot of nothing.
 

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I had the same symptom that you are describing but with some additional reading and trouble shooting we discovered that the hydraulics with a loader and 3 point takes 8 1/2 gallons hydraulic fluid total.
This is divided into two reservoirs the reservoir/cavity for the 3 point takes 3 1/2 gallons and the main hydraulic reservoir for loader and steering takes 5 gallons. It's interesting that the reservoir for the 3 point under the seat is a pressurized by the fluid entering this reservoir and is also pushing the fluid that has drained to the bottom of this reservoir out of the bottom fitting up into the the bottom of the main tank.
My thought was if the 3 point reservoir is not full enough it will be pushing air up into the Main reservoir.



Please post some comments.
 

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More than likely you put a bit too much fluid in the tank. If the cylinders are extended (rod out) and you fill the tank almost full and then retract the cylinders you're putting more oil back in the system. The rods take up the space when they're retracted....Mike
 

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KBayer,
My machine doesn't have the 3 point hitch reservoir. From what I've seen, when there is a backhoe it runs off the tank under the hood also.
 

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More than likely you put a bit too much fluid in the tank. If the cylinders are extended (rod out) and you fill the tank almost full and then retract the cylinders you're putting more oil back in the system. The rods take up the space when they're retracted....Mike
Mike,

I understand what you are saying but if you read my first post under "steps performed" that is exactly what I did to every cylinder on the machine. My fluid level was correct being that once the filter was removed the oil stays inside the tank.
 

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KBayer,
My machine doesn't have the 3 point hitch reservoir. From what I've seen, when there is a backhoe it runs off the tank under the hood also.
Many 3414s are dedicated industrial machines with no rear hitch. Some others are just B-414 farm tractors painted yellow. On the dedicated industrial versions, there is only one hydraulic reservoir/tank that is connected to both hydraulic pumps that run the front loader, rear backhoe, and power steering. The big Cessna pump runs the loader and all backhoe functions EXCEPT swing and the stabilizers. Backhoe swing and stabilizers are powered by the smaller engine-mounted pump that also powers the power steering. The operator must choose one or the other via a push-pull hydraulic diverter valve.

About breathers. 1/8" breathers for main hydraulic tanks are rarely used any more. They had a short service life and today most are much bigger. They are also used in double-acting hydraulic cylinders to convert them to one-way use.

On the 3414, I'm not sure if a common brass-filter type breather will do the job. I suspect it needs a check-valve type. They are easily bought from many sources, but most come no smaller than 1/4" pipe thread. So, you might have to add some adapters. 1/8" pipe thread brass-filter type breathers are still around but I'm not sure that type will work on the 3414. Seems all has to be correct so the two pumps can actually pull oil through that filter. Note that many companies sell converstion kits to install new-type caps, strainers,, breathers, etc. They are relatively cheap.

Here are a few links for info:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-026-A&catname=hydraulic

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=20-1278-C&catname=hydraulic

http://www.purolator-facet.com/pdfs/breather.pdf

http://www.lenzinc.com/productfamily_list.php?id=TlRjJTNE
 

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I understand what you are saying but if you read my first post ....
I did read it and for some reason my eyes just glazed over it, yet another sign of old age, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it, LOL.....Mike
 

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KBayer,
My machine doesn't have the 3 point hitch reservoir. From what I've seen, when there is a backhoe it runs off the tank under the hood also.
Zebra
Are you sure you don't have a reservoir for the 3 point?.
When I say reservoir I mean the cavity that the 3 point cylinder is mounted inside of.
 

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Zebra
Are you sure you don't have a reservoir for the 3 point?.
When I say reservoir I mean the cavity that the 3 point cylinder is mounted inside of.
3414 set up for backhoe use only uses on central reveroir and does not use the rear-hitch reservoir. If the tractor has a loader, hoe, AND three-point hitch, it's all plumbed to the one big metal reservoir under the hood. One difference with the 3 point setup on some later machines is the use of one extra return oil-filter between the flow-divided and the main reservoir, besides the big one in the reservoir tank.

There are many different 3414 configurations, but if it's a factory setup with loader and backhoe, with hitch or not, there is one central steel-can reservoir, hooked to a 9 GPM pump and a 17 GPM pump. The 9 GPM runs the power steering and backhoe swing/stabilizers, and the 17 GPM runs the front loader and all other backhoe functions (pump sizes vary when replaced).
 

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I guess I need to view some more pictures of 414 or 3414 or that sort, so I may see the 3 point and Back Hoe.
 
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