Hydraulic snowcaster

3160 Views 12 Replies 4 Participants Last post by TUDOR, Oct 6, 2013

jayvee43

Discussion Starter · Sep 7, 2013

Howdy guys. (more specifically all the hydro gurus out there) :howdy:

It is getting near the end of summer, and I am re-visitting a idea of mine.

As most of you know, I have mounted my snowcaster on the back of my tractor and i have been driving the unit with a B&S 11 HP. This concept works very good. But.

I was always planning to put a Hydraulic motor on this snowcaster at some point. (This point and time is now)

So this brings me to this question. (and this is where I wish i had the help of some ""very knowledgeable hydraulic guys"")

If I were to use a .58 Cu. In. Gerotor motor to turn the jackshaft on my snowcaster at its top rated speed of 5000 rpm at 15 GPM, would this give me enough torque to "compare to" a 11 HP B&S engine?

Here is a link of the specs on the motor in question?

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/en/Gerotor/058-cu-in-4-Bolt-Hydraulic-Gerotor-Motor/1220383.p

What do you guys think?

How many GPM does my 224 deliver? and if less than 15 will this reduce the torque in question of 184 In. Lb.

mg: Here I am again, asking more questions than i can handle. :fing32:

Thanks again for any help fellas, I appreciate all inputs.

BTW, My 224 is going on its, 4th year with the loader and 2nd year with the blower on the back and all is well with the frame. No evidence of stress on the frame. (I do believe the 200 series are strudier frames) :dunno:

Anyways, what say you, does 184 In. Lb. of torque compare to a 11 B&S turning at 3600 RPM?

Thanks

Jay

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RestMyCase

· #2 · Sep 7, 2013

I like your idea of replacing the engine driven rear mounted snowblower with hydraulic drive, especially with the front loader setup you have. The 38" model blower would require less HP. to operate than the 48" models. Your 224 produces about 8 gpm flow and that equates to about 10 to 12 HP. through the hydraulics. Given the fact that you have the loader to operate and also need power to move the tractor, I think you will end up on the short end of available power to run everything, but I could be wrong. I don't think the motor you are looking at is the right choice for this application. Do the hydraulic formula using 8 gpm. @ 3,600 rpm. to achieve an auger speed of about 900 rpm. or 1/3 engine speed. I know of several guys that have converted their blowers to hydraulic drive but they had the 18 to 20 HP. Onans. The Ingersoll All Hydraulic 3100/4100 series in the early 1990's used a hydraulic driven blower but they had higher gpm. pump output. I will try to find the information on the hydraulic motor used on the conversions if you are interested. Again, I hope you follow through on this project and it works well.

:fing32:

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RestMyCase

· #3 · Sep 7, 2013

The hydraulic motor used in a few of the conversions is a Haldex # 4F657 or 4F658. Here is a link : http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HALDEX-BARNES-Birotational-Fluid-Motor-4F657 ...

:fing32:

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 7, 2013

RestMyCase said:
The hydraulic motor used in a few of the conversions is a Haldex # 4F657 or 4F658. Here is a link : http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/HALDEX-BARNES-Birotational-Fluid-Motor-4F657 ...

:fing32:

Thanks RMC

I see this HALDEX BARNES Flow @ 3600 RPM/1000 PSI 6.6 GPM. But does it have any torque?

I can't seem to see a spec on the torque at 1000 psi. or at 2000 psi. Am I missing something.

also, i was thinking of getting a bigger torque motor with less rpm, and gear it to give me the 1000 rpm at the auger.

I am defenitelly going ahead with this project, i'm just making sure i do my homework before i weld anything. (maybe i learned a thing or two with my loader build) :sidelaugh

Anyway, I'll probably put on the motor I already have, only thing is i don't have the specs on it. I know it is big. May turn too slowly. Only way to know is to hook it up.

I might hook it up, and test it for leaks, maybe it leaks and I have to go to the hydro store. :hide:

ONLY way to know is to build it, i think. :i_praying

I'll keep you info'd.

Jay

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #5 · Sep 7, 2013

Digging further into this studdy, i discovered this:
A good way to determind hydraulic requirements is that you get about 1 HP for every GPM when the pressure is 1500 psi. If you plan to use 3000 psi then you will get 2 HP for every GPM (this formula allows for 80% effeciency). I would transfer as much HP as possible to the blower.

OK, I'm gonna be pushing 8 GPM at 2000 PSI, does that mean 8x1.25=10 at 80%=8 HP.

Because If that is what it means, i am defenitelly within the horsepower torque i was looking for?

I won't be pushing heavy wet snow. I can move that with the loader, I will be using it to blow dry easy to move snow when i need it.And sometimes to cut through a big snowbank mess.

If that is the formulla, then I'm looking good.

Am I reading this right?? :i_praying

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RestMyCase

· #6 · Sep 8, 2013

I suggest you obtain a performance curve on the Parker pump to see where it is going to perform at using the gpm & rpm you intend to run it at ... You already know the intended flow is less than 50% of their listed spec's so I would presume the torque listed is going to be substantially less also. That information should be free from Princess Auto...

:fing32:

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #7 · Sep 8, 2013

RestMyCase said:
I suggest you obtain a performance curve on the Parker pump to see where it is going to perform at using the gpm & rpm you intend to run it at ... You already know the intended flow is less than 50% of their listed spec's so I would presume the torque listed is going to be substantially less also. That information should be free from Princess Auto...

:fing32:

I'm looking at the two ends of the spectrum. One with high rpm low torque, the other with low rpm high torque.

check this out: a .58 Cu In. would give me 3100 RPM at the motor, where as a 2.8 Cu In. would give me 660 RPM, but with torque to spare.

If I were a betting man, I'd stay with torque any day. and use different gearing at the jackshaft sprockets. :dunno:

Check out this great site i found:

http://www.indianafluidpower.com/Formulas.asp#HydraulicMotorCalculations

Jay

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #8 · Sep 8, 2013

Guess I lost the bet. Ah Ha!

My Hydro man says to stay with the .58 Cu In. motor.

He says that is the one that will feel as close as to what i was using. (refering to the B&S motor) He says it will turn at 3200 rpm and has the torque that the 14 HP Kohler gives it. At plus or minus 70 - 80 %

To make a long story short, he says to attach the .58 directly to the jackshaft that was already turning at 3200 - 3600 (no up or down gearing) and try it in the snow.

So There it is. Decision made. :i_praying:i_praying:i_praying:hide:

Wish me luck. :duh:

Jay.

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RestMyCase

· #9 · Sep 8, 2013

Sounds like a plan. How are you going to plumb the hydraulic motor into the system and control the on/off flow ?

:fing32:

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #10 · Sep 8, 2013

RestMyCase said:
Sounds like a plan. How are you going to plumb the hydraulic motor into the system and control the on/off flow ?

:fing32:

Ah Well THAT's easy, for now I have a 1/2 inch hose running from my Pump to my TCV via the mess of hoses I have at the loader controls, I am simply gonna plum off of that. (see the quick connect/disconects) I was thinking for now, just to test while it is warm outside, I would get my hydro shop to build me 2 hoses with respective fittings to go to the hydro motor and run it direct for a few tests of rpm and what not. ( I don't need a case drain) He said.

see picture.

After that, If I like it, i will get me a TCV like spool and install it like a PTO.

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Hydronerd

· #11 · Sep 15, 2013

Did you tell your hydro guy that your Case uses series type circuit and the drive motor is plumbed after this motor. You should have a drain line.
That motor is light duty; unfortunately PAL doesn't offer a suitable motor. Here's one that would work http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7073-75&catname=hydraulic. It should work using the chain with a sprocket on the motor. No need for extra belting.

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jayvee43

Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 5, 2013

I hope I don't disapoint anybody, but the Hydro Caster is on the back burner. I needed a shed for the winter as my old one riped open at the top. I bought a 20 feet long (on sale) and burned my snowcaster hydro motor money today.

I decided to put the 11 H.P. B&S back on it and tune up the motor. i also lubed and prepared the ol blower. Here you never know.

I made a simple video of the modifications, it shows a little of the (go cart type) clutching and chain drive on the modified jackshaft.
I will probably return to the hydro caster next year.

Mean while, yous can enjoy this little vid: :hide:

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TUDOR

· #13 · Oct 6, 2013

I feel for you on the shed issue. Mine didn't survive last winter and I'm still figuring out what to do.

Hydraulic motor torque is dependant on the pressure available and the displacement of the motor. It's fairly consistent throughout the rpm range.

From this, comes this formula.

Relationship between displacement and torque of a hydraulic motor

T = D x PSI ÷ 24π

T is torque in foot-lbs; D is displacement in cubic inches per revolution; PSI is pressure difference across motor; π = 3.14

Note: Flow is not mentioned. At zero rpm there is minimal flow for the internal clearances, but full pressure can be available, and so can full torque.

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