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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just pickup a 646 loader and I'm going to put the three point hitch on. It already has the rear PTO. What I want to do is eliminate the lift cylinder underneath since it will not have a mower deck on it. I want to run that circuit to the 3ph cylinder and also to the front down the loader arms and add quick connect fittings to be able to run a grapple. I figure I will have to put a lockout valve on the 3ph cylinder so it won't cycle when I'm using the grapple. My knowledge of hydraulics is just general but it seems like it should work. Am I missing something before I tear into this? Has this been done before?
Thanks
 

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That works ...

Some simplify the 3 point shut off by using cylinder limiter sleeves to keep the hitch in the up position, instead of installing a hydraulic shutoff.

Personally ... I like having 3 separate circuits, using electric poppet valves.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks guys. When I talked to Tom A he suggested a selector valve. Is the poppet valve the same thing and can you only use one circuit at a time?
 

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Thanks guys. When I talked to Tom A he suggested a selector valve. Is the poppet valve the same thing and can you only use one circuit at a time?
What is being referred to is a valve bank, consisting of 3 separate valves that have electric solenoids on them that are operated by switches. These are essentially ON/OFF valves that often rely on another valve to meter the oil flow to the device being controlled.

For your application, they would work but they would also be more costly than the selector valve that was suggested. However, the nice thing about such a poppet valve arrangement is that you can hide it away in a discrete spot where it won't be seen by the casual observer. The problem with any Case or Ingersoll GT is that "discrete spots" are pretty difficult to find.

This is a typical solenoid or poppet style valve

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329561_200329561

They come in several different flow rates, solenoid voltages and control configurations so that you can build the control block to suit your needs. Each valve controls one item and you must also purchase the appropriate mounting station for the number of valves you want.

Here's an example of a single-station mounting block.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200326788_200326788

For your application, you would need 2 of those valves plus a twin-station mounting block. The mounting blocks accept all the hose connections and if you have a failed valve, then you just undo 4 bolts, unhook the wires and install a replacement valve.

But as you can see, the cost would likely hit the $300.00 mark for a twin station unit and that makes the three-port selector valve look pretty inexpensive by comparison.
 

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The option I am looking at for adding a grapple to my Kubota is an electric diverter valve, this will allow me to mount it near the bucket and not have to run alot of additional lines or mount a valve on the tractor (I will only be able to use the bucket or the grapple one at a time though). The best price I found for a valve is at Surplus Center https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-5117-A&catname=hydraulic. I was also thinking of putting one on the 444 so I could use the front blade and 3pt independently.
Hope this helps and good luck. :fing32:

Brad
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
These valves sound pretty sophisticated. They use what they call a lockout valve on the Deere's. What I get out of it is you lift the cylinder and screw down the valve and the cylinder won't move when the lever is actuated. They use it because the mower deck lift cylinder cycles before it sends pressure to raise the front blade which is the same circuit and they don't like to wait on it. I believe the Deere is operating at 800 psi and the Case lift circuit is 1000 psi. Do you think this valve ($45) will work in line with the 3ph cylinder?
 

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Will it work? Sure it will. Will you like how it works? Maybe, maybe not. It isn't something that I would use.

Controls on any tractor are supposed to be convenient. That valve isn't.

It's designed to mount on the cylinder. In order to use it, you have to get off your tractor, walk behind it and either open or close that valve. You won't be able to use your three point if you have the grapple attachment hooked up unless you put another one of these valves on that cylinder. Now, you have $90.00 invested and you just made life tougher for yourself.

If you put a 3-port selector valve in a convenient spot, you run 1 new hose from the lift valve port to the "IN" on the selector valve. You run one more new hose from the A port on the selector valve to the bottom of the cylinder on the 3 pt. A third new hose has to routed along the loader arm to the quick coupler that is going to connect to the bottom of the grapple cylinder. The hoses coming from the top of both cylinders go into a TEE fitting on the other work port of the lift valve. If you are not happy with the direction that the cylinders move when you move the lift lever a certain way, then switch the connections on the two work ports of the lift valve.

If you shop places such as Surplus center, you can often find low cost 1/4" high pressure hoses that are pre-made for low cost that MAY be suitable for your application. If you have to shorten them and have a local shop crimp one new fitting on, then they can still be a bargain. BTW, you aren't working on a Deere. You are working on a good machine. :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:


https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-6133&catname=


http://tinyurl.com/2g2e682 hose clamps


http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/


Click on hydraulic hose. Scroll to bottom. Find the R-1 hose on the right. This hose is good for 2750 PSI working pressure. Your tractor puts out 1000 PSI on that circuit. You have a safety factor of 2.75. This single-braid hose is nice and flexible and that makes it easy to work with. You could work with them to figure out which fittings you need and have them put one fitting on each of the three hoses and leave them a foot long. Buy the other three fittings. Install the valve, install all three hoses on the valve. Run the hoses to their destinations and mark them with a crayon for cutting.

Remove, take to local hydraulics shop and have them crimp on the three fittings after cutting the hoses to the correct length. Flush hoses clean with solvent. Blow dry and install.

At one time, Case offered an optional 3 port selector valve so this is nothing new but it demonstrates the difference in how Case went about solving this problem compared to Deere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks castoff. They also sell the hoses to locate the valve to the dash. I'm figuring that the 3ph will just have my suitcase weights on it if I was using a grapple. So having to lock it and unlock it compared to finding that spot to locate a large valve bank is probably about equal. I want to have the front circuit on quick connect fittings (like those inferior green machines use) so that it could be removable when not in use and also be able to be mounted on my Magnatrac, then I shouldn't have to worry about that end of the circuit. I've run JD for years and now I'm learning the Case and they are truly awesome machines. I just wanted to make sure that with the higher pressures the same theory would work.
 

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This will work like you want, but you might have clearance issues with this mounting set up and a 600 series. Just put a tee in the line that runs to the front to supply the grapple cylinders.
 

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I think that you're missing the point here.

You don't need a valve bank. All you need is that selector valve that I gave you in the first link in my previous post plus three hoses. If you use the valve you're talking about, all you're saving is the difference between $45.00 and $56.00. The hoses needed will be about the same cost. The selector valve can mount on the side of the dash tower in a convenient spot and with this one small change, you go from having a useless three point while using the grapple to having the ability to instantly switch to the 3 point at will.

One thing I've learned is that it's hard to predict the uses we find for our tractors. Today, it's a grapple. Tomorrow.. who know? And with that uncertainty also comes the uncertainty as to how we might make use of a three point attachment in conjunction with the latest attachment we mount on the loader arms. For $11.00, this doesn't seem to be such a big deal to me.

You are entitled to take your own path. I'm just trying to show you a different one that may prove to be more beneficial in the long term.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thinking ahead for future applications is one reason why I wanted to pick everyone's brain on this one. That selector valve says it will operate two single acting cylinders. Is it just shutting down one side of the two way cylinder which now that I think about that's all the lockout valve is doing right? Which side would be best extending or retracting?
Thanks for the pic Kc. It brought this to life for me not just a static pic out of a catalog.
Bear with me castoff. Remember I'm still in that green haze but I'll come around.
 

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CP7,
Of course, I will get slammed for sounding arrogant but you need to learn to trust me. If I recommend that valve, then I do so because I KNOW it will work. I don't guess at stuff like some people do. Don't worry about what that site says about that valve. There's more than one type of application for such valves.

It doesn't matter which side of the cylinder you shut down. Oil always takes the path of least resistance. As I said in my earlier post, what does matter is the ergonomics of your lift lever. You have to decide what YOU want to happen when you pull the lift lever toward you. Most people would choose the 3 pt to lift when doing that. Most people would choose the grapple to open when you did that. Maybe you're not "most people" and that feels wrong. You can plumb it either way.

I understand about the green haze. There are all kinds of people that have been affected by that disease.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I think it's only arrogant when your wrong. When your right it's called accurate. :fing32:
I'm ordering that selector valve in the morning. Thanks for the info castoff.
 
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