[sdevlin]

I just acquired 2 HT3813s from a friend, and I am working on getting one of them running.

- When I wire the battery leads to the 12 volt system on a car, the tractor starts and runs perfect.

- As soon as I remove the power from the car, the tractor dies.

- How is the charging system set up on these tractors, and what could be the dysfunctional part that is causing it to not generate its own electricity?

Thanks for the help!

-Scott

 

[larryccf]

the ignition is a magneto coil - it's generating it's own electricity but what i can't understand is how it fires when you've got aux power from your car's battery - the battery is not feeding current to the ignition coil -

below is shot taken from boats.net parts schematic page at http://www.boats.net/parts/search/H...N COIL + FLYWHEEL (HT3813-K1-4213)/parts.html

ref #1 is the magneto coil with the two plug wires - it sits outside the flywheel, at about the 9;30 or 10:00 O'clock position, when looking at the back of the engine, under the black plastic timing cover

in the flywheel there's a small magnet, maybe 1.5" long, bonded to the flywheel into a cutout or depression in the outside of the flywheel. when that magnet moves past the magneto, it generates current or spark

it's possible that magnet has fallen out or the gap between the coil and it needs adjustment - iirc, it's supposed to be a .008 t0 .016" gap. Be sure to not use a steel feeler guage - i used a brass one, to avoid interference from the magnet

hopefully that gives you a start

i'll pull the svc manual later and see what specs are to check the coil

that cover can be removed far enough to inspect the magneto - and possibly even far enough to remove it, without having to remove the engine

found the page in the 4514 svc manual that i had here - basically same engine block, same coil, flywheel etc -

 

[sdevlin]

Thanks for the reply! I wanted to bypass the battery as a problem, so I ran jumpers from the car terminals right to the battery wires on the tractor. It ran when connected like that. When I unclipped a jumper cable, it would stop firing and die. Thats why I was curious how the electric system worked. I figured there was a magneto and coil. I will give your suggestions above a shot. I know the back end of the motor is pretty tight in there. I would hate to have to yank that motor out. Thanks again!

 

[larryccf]

if you do have to yank the motor, first it'll take an hour or so, after that it's fairly quick 30-40 minutes and really isn't that hard

engine weighs by itself about 100 lbs

 

[Bob V]

My experience with the 3813 is that they will not run without a battery connected. I know that seems to defy logic, but as far as I have been able to understand, the battery supports all the relays that enable the unit to run. Even though logic would tell you that with it's own ignition and charging coil it should run, without the battery hook-up, there is not enough power to support all the interlocks and relays and as a result, the engine will shut down as a safety measure.

My own 3813 runs great and charges the battery just like it should, but if I remove either of the battery cables, she will die out in a heart beat.

Larry, you probably have much more in depth knowledge on this than I do and you can probably make sense out of it.

 

[larryccf]

actually bob, that makes sense

and to be frank, i'm a fred flintstone of electricals - i know the very basics - even when i mechanic'd (30-40 yrs ago) i hated electrical problems

PS - looks like bob V may have hit on the head - i had brought the svc manual up from the garage, so i pulled the schematic - and bingo - the kill lead from the coil goes to both the key switch and a "control relay". And as the battery also has a lead running to the key switch, it appears the battery must feed power to the control relay thru the key switch

 

[dlandsv]

There is not any mention where you actually replaced the battery from another vehicle or source.

I would make sure it is not the battery first. A battery can be discharged way below 12 volts and still provide a circuit when jumped from another battery with 13 volts. If the tractors have been sitting for awhile I would venture to guess the batteries have sulfated to the point where they will not permit a charge to over 12 volts.

Lawnmower batteries and even motorcycle batteries tend to sulfate more than car batteries because of the long period between use (winter months).

I desulfated a small $25 WalMart battery that had sat in my garage for at least 3 years after it was removed from a Sear rider. I just never got around to returning it for a refund. It works great now and is in my 4213.

I also use my desulfator to desulfate the battery in my 1998 Camaro that sits for months between use. These little gizmos do work.

You can buy a desulfater or a trickle charger that desulfates as it charges during the winter months. Or just keep buying new batteries every two or three years :banghead3 The most popular trickle charger for motorcylces is green but can't recall the name.

This is one brand - there many brands for desulfators.

http://www.batterytechsolutions.com/desulfator

 

[sdevlin]

This is all really great information, y'all. I was trying to get it running without a battery (using a car) because I didn't happen to have a battery on hand (the one that came with it was d.o.a.). If the tractor is supposed to shut off when the battery leads are disconnected, then there may be no power problem at all - it just needs a battery. Is it true that these motors require at least 330 CCAs? That seems like a lot for a small form factor battery.

 

[larryccf]

believe so - one of the factors for that, i'm sure, is that the pistons travel to TDC together, ie not 180 degrees opposite

i'd forgotten that when someone reminded me - and apparently the 4514 engines do as well. RogerB suggested it was for torque, similiar to what the Triumph motorcycles did back in the 60s

 

[sdevlin]

Well, I put it a new battery with 350 CCAs and she fires and runs. I have yet to check to see if the battery is being drained while it runs. While it was running, I found gas pouring out of the right side just behind the muffler...Looks like I need to address a fuel leak now...

 

[dlandsv]

Fire it up, turn the lights on and let it run for an hour then turn it off.

If the battery shows more than 12 volts (12.5 up to 13 or so) then I would venture to say that the charging system is working as it should.

In a week or so, before you start it, check the voltage again. It still should read more than 12 volts (12.5 up to 13). Eventually, however, over the winter it will sulfate to the point where the voltage will drop and you will have to charge the battery again to desulfate it.

These tractors are engineered very well with a very good grounding system. But the batteries posts are different now compared to 20 years ago. I clipped the ground end and installed a new end that bolts directly to the ground on the battery. The red stuff (about $2) keeps it from corroding over the winter.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5670514876/in/set-72157626516992426/

Since I plan to keep my three (4213,3813,4514) for the rest of my life - I restored the battery trays on all three with POR 15. It is great stuff - but ceramic is good too. The POR 15 surface feels almost like plastic and repels moisture very well.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5839468843/in/set-72157626516992426/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5840019276/in/set-72157626516992426/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5840019276/in/set-72157626516992426/

hth

 

[cams410]

Caveat: I am not a mechanic; those who have read about my red rider problem know that as a fact.

BUT.... during the summer of 2010, my 2013 would start but not run. As I recall (?) it would crank and start but not run for any period of time. A friend (guy) popped the hood, exposed the magneto, and saw that it was rusty. Don't know why, the red rider has been garaged all its life. Anyway, he lightly sanded the rust off. Bingo! No more problem.

Don't know if this helps or not. Sometimes the solution is so simple you overlook it - like maybe adding a little too much oil and then freaking out when you see smoke. :fing20:

 

[dlandsv]

I completely forgot that you had made an offer to buy my 4514. For now I still plan to keep it if I can figure out how to mount the snowblower on it rather than what it is intended for (my 4213).

But - if you are still looking for a 4514 or 4518, now is the time be searching as mowers are out of season.

About a month ago in Dallas there was a 4514 which looked to be as good a condition as mine or even better. Advertised price was only $650- IMO a steal since the deck looked as it if had hardly been used. If I didn't already have four (two 3813's, 4213, and the 4514) in my herd - I would have drove down to the big D and got it.

http://www.reachoo.com/ads/20162284#dallas-Honda%204514,%20Liquid%20Cooled,%20Hydro-Stat,%2038%22%20Deck!%20(Justin)%20$650

Keep your eye out and browse craigslist - when they come up for sale at that price they go fast. I paid only $225 for my last 3813 - original owner - very well maintained with 4 brand new tires.

BTW - there is no comparison between the 4514 and 3813/4213 for driveability because of the hydrostatic drive plus it is much quieter also when mowing.

 

[larryccf]

Well, I put it a new battery with 350 CCAs and she fires and runs. I have yet to check to see if the battery is being drained while it runs. While it was running, I found gas pouring out of the right side just behind the muffler...Looks like I need to address a fuel leak now...

are you sure that isn't fuel running out of the carb overflow tube? - it feeds down to a "breather" box down on the frame at the rear of the muffler, has a second permanently open tube outlet facing upward that is just there, open, to vent excess fuel that might collect in there.

If the carb float is hung up or the needle isn't seating in the valve, the float will not shut off fuel flow into the carb bowl, and you'll see it running out of that breather box