My Tractor Forum banner

1 - 20 of 133 Posts

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The beast in question (see avatar): 1997ish 22.5 Kohler 50" hydro gear 210 almost 1200 hrs.

Background: bought in to what manual said and never did oil / filter on the trans. Yeah, I know strike one and been reading on that. Generally, this thing is a beast and I use it hard (see avatar). Ground speed up hills fully loaded has been lagging lately. Replacing the 10+ yr old drive belt helped for a few weeks. While I was under doing that, checked all the mount brackets, fan, pulleys, neutral switch and linkage. Also checked oil level and found it full.

I usually put the rear in neutral (transport) to push it out of the basement. For last couple years have had to push the lever a lit bit to get it fully in neutral but that's likely just a linkage tweak. Want to say it would also roll a bit when lever back in drive mode.

The fail: pulling both tow mowers, going through heavy wet grass, heard a bang from the rear and it stopped moving entirely. Used my 4wd truck to drag it up the hill and take a closer look. The parking brake works and holds it. If I let the brake off, the thing will roll away like it's in neutral and yeah, checked that valve.

Jacked it up to get rear off ground, jumped the seat switch. Did find a broken axle mount bolt and the rear kinda wondering around a bit but tightened the other one and it at least stays in place. Drive belt is tight [enough]. Fire it up, clutch for blades work, let the brake off (tension drive belt) and can see fan and trans input pulley spinning.

Shift it through gears (tires still off ground) and it will spin the axles both forward and reverse. Grab the spinning tire and it stops, other side spins. Grab the other side, it stops. About where I quit and pushed it in the garage. Was able to roll it easy with transport valve in drive position and could hear gears moving in the rear while doing so.

At this point, feel pretty sure I broke a gear / shaft / gizmo in the axle and the pump is likely ok. Plan A is a used hydro assembly from a donor, Plan B is an identical tractor for sale reasonably close. Plan C is follow A to get it up and running then tear the axle open. Fixable or not, wanna do the autopsy.

So the question here is: are these axles actually repairable and does my current problem sound any kind of familiar?? I have repaired automotive transmissions so I think I can handle the wrenching end of it. Do parts exist or what kind of pain is it to find them? Is it likely to find one or two obviously broken parts or is it more likely to find every moving part worn down to the nub?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
368 Posts
Is the hub splined? or is it a key way? May be simple enough that you sheared a key way off on the axle.

Do you have the model number that can tell use exactly what hydro you have?

djl
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Tractor: 917-258911

Hydro Gear 218-3010

Original HG assy part number should be 150073 which supersedes 114043 and was superseded by 163198. As Husgvarna now owns AYP, they list it as 532114043 and claim that I can buy one new in the box for $1500. Yeah, that option is way down the list but would be interesting to see if I can actually order one.
 

·
15,000 +posts!
Joined
·
20,320 Posts
If the transaxle has an open differential,then it is normal for the tire with the least resistance to spin if the other is held still..

The "bang" does sound like something "bad" broke internally though..

My experience with hydrostats that have high hours and start "slipping" when hot,are usually roached,the pump and internal guts and the case all get scored and eventually "leak" enough pressure to prevent any power being transmitted...

I'd just try to get a good used one,or new,if you dont mind the price..
You could gut the thing and maybe get lucky and find it is just a broken coupling or something inside,but I wouldn't get my hopes too high..
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,239 Posts
Looking at the breakdown in the Owners Manual, it appears there are a couple parts that might break without destroying the transmission.

I'd check axle key and the axle itself.
The axle comes in an "Assembly". I see a used one on Ebay for $60.
I just Googled-
AYP 142877
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
If the transaxle has an open differential,then it is normal for the tire with the least resistance to spin if the other is held still..

The "bang" does sound like something "bad" broke internally though..

My experience with hydrostats that have high hours and start "slipping" when hot,are usually roached,the pump and internal guts and the case all get scored and eventually "leak" enough pressure to prevent any power being transmitted...

I'd just try to get a good used one,or new,if you dont mind the price..
You could gut the thing and maybe get lucky and find it is just a broken coupling or something inside,but I wouldn't get my hopes too high..
It's definitely an open diff so drive torque switching sides doesn't surprise. The noteworthy symptom there is how little effort I had to exert with my hand to stop the side that was spinning. As in: not that much power coming though the pump / axle. As in: only enough power to spin the wheels when they're off the ground.

The bang may have been more of a snap and may have been the one axle mounting bolt breaking. Dunno for sure, but there was a definite feeling like something just plain disconnected in the way that it stopped. Pulling fine one second, dead stop the next.

That's kinda the bit I don't get. Broken enough that it free wheels with the bypass valve in drive mode but connected enough that it will spin the wheels fwd, rev and diff side to side. Does that sound more like really low pressure from the pump? Something in that bypass circuit that popped open?

Have a line on a used one with "only" 800 hrs to get me through the cutting season and this one is getting torn apart either way.
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Looking at the breakdown in the Owners Manual, it appears there are a couple parts that might break without destroying the transmission.
I'd be interested in that list - and some of the theory behind it.

I'd check axle key and the axle itself.
The axle comes in an "Assembly". I see a used one on Ebay for $60.
I just Googled-
AYP 142877
The only key I see is between the axle and wheel hub. If it was slipping there, the parking brake wouldn't keep the tractor from rolling (which it does).

If I extend that theory and "assume" that everything from the brake shaft to the wheels is connected enough that the brake locks the wheels, then it should be connected enough to drive the wheels. The conclusion being that the fail has to be upstream in the pump.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
775 Posts
Sorry for your loss... :-(

I have lost one HYDROSTATIC Unit, and have swore on the Peerless 3-Hi/Low since.

I even have a "spare" that I have "sortof" rebuilt, but can't really find the correct destination for parts & literature for.

I hope this "potential" one with ~800+ hours works for ya...

Happy Tractoring!

-Thomas (12)
Port Orchard, Washington


Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Drive wheels off the ground, bypass valve in drive position:

Parking brake on: spin one wheel, opposite side spins opposite direction. Try to spin both in same direction, they both lock. Not able to hold one in place and spin the other. I'm thinking that means the wheel hub is turning the axle, key in place and everything connected through the axle / diff / reduction up the brake shaft.

Parking brake off: spin one wheel either direction, other side does noting, noticeable noise coming from center of axle. Basic mechanical rattling like ball bearings rolling around. Spin both wheels in same direction and it gets twice as loud. Spin each wheel in opposite directions and it goes away entirely. Thinking that's kinda normal too - either wheel spinning rotates gear drive thru diff, both in opposite directions and the input side of the diff should be stationary.

Drive wheels off the ground, bypass valve in transport position:

same tests, same results.

My theory here is that the pump is in bypass mode regardless of where that valve is. Hole in that is how I got it to drive the wheels when they were off the ground. That would make me think check valves, maybe. More likely one of the pumps not putting out enough pressure / not holding off reverse pressure.
 

·
OWL82k
Joined
·
168 Posts
If it's a Tuff Torq yes it can be repaired but deere doesn't sell parts, will need to contact TT directly. I think deere just replaces units due to Time/cost factor and warrantee afterwards. T called them when I had a x300 with a k46 I thought was going out. They were quite helpfull and free with I formation. The K46 is considered non servacable sealed tranny by deere.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

·
OWL82k
Joined
·
168 Posts
If it's a Tuff Torq yes it can be repaired but deere doesn't sell parts, will need to contact TT directly. I think deere just replaces units due to Time/cost factor and warrantee afterwards. T called them when I had a x300 with a k46 I thought was going out. They were quite helpfull and free with I formation. The K46 is considered non servacable sealed tranny by deere.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Oops didnt realise you were not in the John Deere forem. My bad, but maybe my post will help someone.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
22,007 Posts
Drive wheels off the ground, bypass valve in drive position:

Parking brake on: spin one wheel, opposite side spins opposite direction. Try to spin both in same direction, they both lock. Not able to hold one in place and spin the other. I'm thinking that means the wheel hub is turning the axle, key in place and everything connected through the axle / diff / reduction up the brake shaft.

Parking brake off: spin one wheel either direction, other side does noting, noticeable noise coming from center of axle. Basic mechanical rattling like ball bearings rolling around. Spin both wheels in same direction and it gets twice as loud. Spin each wheel in opposite directions and it goes away entirely. Thinking that's kinda normal too - either wheel spinning rotates gear drive thru diff, both in opposite directions and the input side of the diff should be stationary.

Drive wheels off the ground, bypass valve in transport position:

same tests, same results.

My theory here is that the pump is in bypass mode regardless of where that valve is. Hole in that is how I got it to drive the wheels when they were off the ground. That would make me think check valves, maybe. More likely one of the pumps not putting out enough pressure / not holding off reverse pressure.
Friction between broken parts can drive the rear wheels with no load. I've had the key fail in a hydraulic pump and it would still lift the loader bucket. Throw a shovel full of dirt in the bucket and it was done for the day until the key was replaced.

Your testing indicates failure in the final drive gear train. Parking brakes are normally mounted on an intermediate shaft that uses gear reduction to increase rear axle torque. The flip side is that it takes substantial force at the rear wheels to get the same braking force. If it was a hydro failure, valves or otherwise, you wouldn't hear increased noises in the center of the axle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,107 Posts
Perhaps way off in yonder field... I have had a Snapper shear the pin that connects axle to wheel hub. It seemed to lose power, and did not want to climb slight inclines. I steered it the 'long way' back to the garage and checked. The drive pin was sheared, and it was only friction that got enough power through to carry me home...
Point being that friction will make the rear wheels turn, but put a load on it and you'll get slippage if not complete lack of power transfer. Seems worthwhile to me to check that before assuming the worst. I did not analyze the above testing.
I know that some of these hydros have a drive chain that could also snap internally. It may or may not flop around and jam the works completely, or it could (lucky for someone) fall to the bottom and stay out of the way.
I think the only way a hydro could go out with a bang is the chain, the key, or a key on the pump or motor shaft shearing.
I also would take it apart, even if non-repairable. If you are good, and can find parts, they can be repaired successfully. If you do, don't go whole hog on the sealant when slapping the case halves back together. Too much goo is not a good thing. Whatever you put there will be squashed out to almost paper-thin, so it does not take a lot. Pay attention also to where sealant is used, and where not. Some of them have 'internal' spots that are sealed, I think those that have separate differential case areas. The real thought here is to pay attention to where you have to remove old sealant and match that.
tom
 

·
Minding my P's & Q's
Joined
·
2,041 Posts
In the drawing part number 16 is known to go out often in this particular transaxle.
One end goes to the brake disk. Other end is hollow with splines inside.
The splines on the inside of the shaft ware off, brake off. That might explain why you can still turn wheels with the brake locked.

Some where on MTF there is a thread about replacing this shaft with pictures if you can find it. I could not. Hope the poster did not use photo bucket.
 

Attachments

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
In the drawing part number 16 is known to go out often in this particular transaxle.
One end goes to the brake disk. Other end is hollow with splines inside.
The splines on the inside of the shaft ware off, brake off. That might explain why you can still turn wheels with the brake locked.

Some where on MTF there is a thread about replacing this shaft with pictures if you can find it. I could not. Hope the poster did not use photo bucket.
Potentially relevant detail here: my brake disk does hold the wheels from spinning when I try to spin them in the same direction. aka will keep the tractor from rolling when the brake is on.

I recall seeing a thread or two about this a couple months back when I joined this site. Was able to track down one of them where the initial fail symptom sounds identical to mine, fix ended up being the brake shaft, picture links broken:

https://www.mytractorforum.com/14-craftsman-sears-forum/18149-hydro-gear-trans-busted.html

Found another one talking about the fix without getting in to the fail that has working pictures:

https://www.mytractorforum.com/14-craftsman-sears-forum/209998-hydro-gear-help.html

The interesting bit is that both talk about a coupler between the pump and the brake shaft that is the actual culprit. My diagram doesn't show that piece but I can imagine it being part of part #16. All this is really making me wish I just ripped the thing apart blindly looking for obvious damage instead of trying to figure out how the whole thing works and what might have gone bad. All I'm gonna say is I have a bad cold and virtual wrenching seemed easier in the moment.

Some actual wrenching to follow.
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I love craigs list: The day after mine blew up, an ad was posted for a similar tractor. Turns out to be identical model number and is currently in the back in my pick up. Starts, runs, drives, cuts but is more of a donor than a project.

It was probably in better shape than mine when the seller bought it a couple years ago - leaving it outside all year didn't do it any favors. The amp gauge "fell" out of the dash, seller says a mouse chewed through one of the plug wires but he's got it taped up. The big ugly that made him give up on it is something wrong with either the stator, regulator or a connection because it won't charge the battery.

On the upside, the dead-ish battery is less than a year old. The drive belt and both deck belts are new. The blades are new, the deck is in great shape (had to replace mine). That stuff alone adds up to almost the $150 I paid, never mind that's almost what a used hydro sitting on a shelf would cost.

The plan for tomorrow is to harvest the rear and put it in my tractor. Shows some signs of wear but works and should get me through the month of so of cutting left this year. Hey, has 300 less hours and pretty unlikely that its's spent those hours dragging the weight of (2) tow mowers around so should have $100 worth of life still in it.

Right after I get that done, it's tear down my blown one and find out what's really broken. I think the big problem here will be keeping myself from fixing the rest of the stuff that's wrong with this thing after I use it to test my transaxle repair.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,107 Posts
Sometimes it is hard to put one down. "Just a new thisthat or one of the multiple used thatthises will make this baby run like new." 'cept that you do not need a second machine, it takes up space, the spouse wants it GONE, now! or sooner. But she will refrain from saying a lot, knowing if she does, things will grow stubborn...
When something is designated a 'parts machine', then decide. What parts are good to keep, and what should be turned into razor blades(used to was, CV's, BBs, CGs...). Fasteners can all go into a coffee can(well no longer as it does not come in cans) or plastic, rods & blades can be tucked into a shipping tube or longish waste basket, but the big parts? They have to hang on the wall, or go over the rafters in the garage or ???
I got a freeby. Fixed up the tires that were maypops(cracked sidewall) using tubes, new belt, battery, clean carb & fuel tank, adjust valves, etc. Sold it. But with minimal investment. Could have gotten more for the parts, but wifey was GLAD. So, happy life.
tom
 

·
Big and Wide
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I've had a few cars that contributed to my stash of spare parts on their way to becoming something else made out of metal so I get the concept. One of them I wish I had kept but oh well. All my daily drivers are 40ish yrs old and having more than one has come in handy a couple times and I'm starting to have that mindset when it comes to my 20 yr old mower. see also: I like this one and don't want to try finding something else that might be able to handle my 3 wide set up. Right now the best justification I have for having a 2nd tractor is the 2 or 3 times a year I get stuck in a mud hole that I should have known better than to drive in to - again. Ok, maybe the better one is the expectation of more transaxle fails in my future.

For example: I can roll the donor I just picked up with the bypass valve in the drive position. Only in one direction, but shouldn't be able to do that at all. I'm trying my best to gloss over that until I autopsy my blown one. It also has what appears to be the original filter on it so another case of believing the manual that says "no service required".

So anyway, unloaded it yesterday and my intellectual curiosity got the better of me on the way to taking it apart. Poked around at the battery charging problem and pretty sure I fixed that. While in the middle of harvesting the rear that I bought if for, I took 15 minutes to fix the drive belt tensioner that was annoyance during the test drive. If I know how my compulsions work, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna end up looking at the carb when using the thing to test my hydro repair. If (ok, when) I fix that, I'm only one flat front tire away from something I can jump on when I need it.

I also hate craigs list: another identical high hours tractor popped up yesterday and priced below market. As with my cars, I see the problem mostly as a critical lack of garages.
 
1 - 20 of 133 Posts
Top