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Hi all,

I would like to make a Front End Loader for my JD 318. I am well aware of pretty much everything like counterweights, running it off the PTO, and in general not over extending it beyond its capabilities. I know about the loader plans you can purchase on the internet, however I think $55 is a little steep. Besides, I have the geometry worked out good, probably going to mock it up in 2x4s before I start cutting metal.

What I am foggy about, are the hydraulics. I know the 318 runs about 3450 rpms wide open, no load, and I would like to run this loader off the PTO. What I want to know are specifics about what kind of pump I can get, how big of a tank, should I use a filter and such? I am foggy about stuff like 2-stage pumps and such. Does anyone have any good links to pumps I can buy? Are there any basic tutorials on building hydraulic systems for this sort of application? Any info would be appreciated.....Thanks!

EDIT: haha, didn't notice the thread below me.....
 

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:MTF_wel2: , timberwolf5480!!

That one is a good place to start. Do a search for front end loader builds. There are several.

Basic hydraulic tutorial. For specifics, check in the threads or ask.

http://www.edgeroamer.com/sweethaven/mechanics/hydraulics01/

Hydraulic pumps. (You need 0.33 - 0.39 cu-in displacement for 5 - 6 gpm flow at full throttle.)

http://baileynet.com/index.php

http://www.northerntool.com/

https://www.surpluscenter.com/

And if you go to Winnipeg, Manitoba.

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/

Double pumps, a.k.a. 2 stage pumps, are for log splitters with low horsepower, not FELs.

Thread for pump sizing.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=239784

Threads for FEL general info.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=192152

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=123377

http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=226345

That should keep you occuppied for a few minutes.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thank you for all the info, I had a small list made already from the bits and pieces I have picked up in just the last few hours:

pump
Dynamic Gear Pump — .61 Cu. In., Model# GP-F20-10-P-A - $100
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200330127_200330127

control valve
Prince Two-Spool Control Valve, Model# RD522GCGA5A4B1 - $229.99
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_7261_7261

Cylinders
Lion Hydraulics Lion 2500 TL Series Hydraulic Cylinder - $90.00 (x 4 = $360)
http://www.fleetfarm.com/catalog/product_detail/farm-livestock/implement-parts/repair-parts/lion-hydraulics-lion-2500-tl-series-hydraulic-cylinder

would get the 2 in Bore 16 in Stroke or item #008091241


Filter
Nortrac Hydraulic Return Filter Assembly — 20 GPM - $24.99
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200466914_200466914

Hoses and Ends
Not sure what size or how long yet

Tank or reservoir
Not sure how big, whether or not to fab one directly into the loader, or purchase a separate one.

I picked all these items on this list just from a basic understanding of what I have picked up in the last few hours of reading this and other forums, I thought it was also a good place to get an idea of cost as well. Not sure if any of these items will even work together yet.....

Double pumps, a.k.a. 2 stage pumps, are for log splitters with low horsepower, not FELs.
thank you for clearing that up for me!
 

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That pump is too big and would have to be underdriven to throttle it back to a useable flow rate. The pump sizes that I recommended will allow direct drive (1:1 ratio) for a maximum flow rate that 1/4" hoses will support and still allow the correct flow rate at 2/3 throttle for best control with 2" bore cylinders.

The valve set is likewise a little on the large size. It is acceptable, but you would be better served with a valve set with 3/8" or 1/2" ports requiring less expensive adapter fittings.

Your cylinder choice will do the job. Cleaning them is not fun when they get dirty. The better cylinders for a cleaner look are the welded cylinders. Besides looking better, they are less bulky and shorter overall, reducing space requirements. They do cost a bit more. A 16" stroke for the lift cylinders is a bit short and requires higher pressure. Try 18" stroke for the lift and 14" for the bucket.

Your filter choice is also a bit large. I believe the 10 gpm filter uses the same element but requires smaller fittings. Fittings and hoses, as a group, are the single most expensive hydraulic component for a FEL. You get the rest of your components with that thought in mind. Fittings for 1/2" ports and less are fine, for 3/4" ports and over, the price goes up quickly.

Many homebuilt FELs utilize the posts as tanks for reservoirs. Mine are 2x4x1/8 wall rectangular tubing joined with a 3/4" hydraulic pressure hose and contain 2 gallons of oil. This gives a lot of square inches of heat dumping surface area without using up additional space for a separate reservoir and cooler. I built them with baffles to promote circulation for better cooling.

Figure a bill for the hydraulics at $1,000. By shopping sales and eBay, that can be reduced. Just don't count on it until it happens. The bill for the necessary steel is considerably less, even with the necessary shop time for bending the bucket into shape to reduce welding time.

The above mentioned components, when utilized on a GT sized FEL will lift 2000 lb at 1500 psi with the correct geometry and unlimited counterweight. As installed on a JD318, maybe 1200 lb with counterweight consumate with rear axle capability. Moving the tractor with that load will be an interesting proposition.
 

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I just reread your first post and realized that you may be wanting to run the pump off the tractor's PTO and not the engine PTO. This sorta leaves the question of pump input rpm up in the air.

The pump for my loader runs off the end of the rear PTO shaft (3600 rpm). There is a reduction unit that comes from that shaft for the rear PTO (2000 rpm).

If your intention is to drive the pump from a 2000 rpm source, your pump choice is correct.

:sorry1: if I've caused confusion.
 

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Discussion Starter #6

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This one is a beter choice.

http://baileynet.com/index.php?dnfwd=1&page=ProductDetails&line=GPSP&baileyno=252-158

The manufacturer has taken into account the expected life out of the pump at the rated rpm, so there're no worries there. Hydraulic pumps in these applications have a life expectancy measured in decades since they don't get that many hours per year. Dirt or water in the system is a greater concern than wearing out or blowing up the pump.

There are several places in the system to save money. The pump is not one of them if it means trying to push more oil through than the rest of the system can handle correctly. I mentioned earlier that most GT FELs use 1/4" hoses, and that puts a limit on the max flow rate allowed of 6 gpm. Your pump selection will flow over 7 gpm at full throttle. This generates turbulance and heat in the system, neither of which is desired.

In addition, you will find that your loader is hard to control at full throttle, even at 5.5 gpm, and that 2/3 throttle is just about right. There is no reason for more throttle except to generate speed for the tractor. An 8 hp engine will work as well for most of the work that you will be doing. It just won't push the bucket quite as far into the pile of dirt or gravel as the engine currently on your tractor, and you would still be using 2/3 throttle except for that extra pushing power.

You will find that, while the electric clutch is convenient, it is subject to wear and forgetting to turn it off. If you plan on using that PTO for other applications, it makes sense to keep the clutch. If it's going to be dedicated to the pump, remove it and use an engine mounted pump bracket and coupling instead.


My GT has a 54" bucket and I've ran it at 2/3 throttle with no problem for over 2000 hours since 1984. The current pump has about 1000 hours on it. The previous pump had a very light (7/16") input shaft which got twisted off after about 800 hours. My loader also makes lifts at pressures well above what you will require. My system is relieved at 1500 psi and is rarely maxed out. Yours will probably not see 1000 psi. That takes a JD4xx tractor to get up to the same pressures as a MF1655 can generate.
 

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Yeah, looks like a better choice, I do plan on using the electric pto because I still need the tractor for mowing lawn. I seriuosly doubt ill be seeing loads over 500 lbs, I just need the loader a few times a year, probably hauling gravel and dirt, and maybe a backup to my 112 snowblower, which breaks down often. Would like to be able to take loader off and put mower on and vise versa. Sounds like a really fun project to make, if I needed anything heavier...probably would look for a bigger tractor or skid loader. Fun fun fun, my dad always wanted one, never got one, now I am making one...
 

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Yeah, looks like a better choice, I do plan on using the electric pto because I still need the tractor for mowing lawn. I seriuosly doubt ill be seeing loads over 500 lbs, I just need the loader a few times a year, probably hauling gravel and dirt, and maybe a backup to my 112 snowblower, which breaks down often. Would like to be able to take loader off and put mower on and vise versa. Sounds like a really fun project to make, if I needed anything heavier...probably would look for a bigger tractor or skid loader. Fun fun fun, my dad always wanted one, never got one, now I am making one...
Wanna bet?

I put my loader on my MF1655 in 1984. It hasn't been off since and it got 100 hours per year on the clock until 5 years ago. It was my prime snow mover until I got my MF GC 2310 with its loader.

My yard is too small for a mower on either, but my driveway is 165' long and my 1200 square foot steel house roof avalanches into my driveway several times each winter. A snowblower won't touch that pile. It just climbs up on it.

You will be amazed at the odd little jobs that a loader will do when outfitted correctly.
 

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I'm interested in the same thing, but I have question: What does CW / CCW / REV mean on single stage pumps. Here is the website I'm asking about: https://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulic.asp?catname=hydraulic

I want to use them as I can pick up what I want at the counter and not have to pay shipping. I'm looking for a good pump for my Johnson Model 10TC that I am putting on JD 140 or CC 1250.
 

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I'm interested in the same thing, but I have question: What does CW / CCW / REV mean on single stage pumps. Here is the website I'm asking about: https://www.surpluscenter.com/hydraulic.asp?catname=hydraulic

I want to use them as I can pick up what I want at the counter and not have to pay shipping. I'm looking for a good pump for my Johnson Model 10TC that I am putting on JD 140 or CC 1250.
Not entirely sure what REV (reverse maybe?) is, but sure CW, CCW is Clockwise and Counter clockwise.

My yard is too small for a mower on either, but my driveway is 165' long and my 1200 square foot steel house roof avalanches into my driveway several times each winter. A snowblower won't touch that pile.
As of last August I have 25 acres, and about 4-5 of them is grass. Fairly long driveway, probably about 300' or so, and I have a 30x40 heated shop with a metal roof on it, so yeah, a loader will definetly come in handy, but I wasn't thinking of a loader when I bought the 318, I was looking more at the 50" mower deck on it. Although I can see myself using the loader more and more......
 

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CW = Clockwise rotation when looking at the shaft end of the pump/motor.

CCW = Counterclockwise ditto.

REV = Revoution(s)

See the above posts #2 & #7 for the correct pump sizes and the reasons for using one of those sizes.
 

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I was just looking at my tractor, I am not sure I can hook it up direct, or at least I don't see another sheave anywhere in between the crank and the PTO, unless we take the PTO off somehow, and put a pulley there that spins all the time. At least the front PTO, the back PTO is a whole other animal I haven't looked at.
 

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I believe the 318 uses a Sundstrand Series 15 "U" hydro which has a through shaft for the pump. The input end of that shaft has the cooling fan (it is usually driven from the PTO end in GTs) and, maybe :dunno:, the rear PTO. Take a look at extending that shaft for your pump.

That's what I did for the rear PTO on my 1655, built a new shaft that goes beyond the PTO pulleys and the seat pan and hung a pulley on the end. I had to fab up a support for the pump which can double as a seat for a passenger. It's not pretty, but it is very functional and adds some weight to the rear as well. It was an execise hanging it there while still maintaining full movement for the 3PH.
 

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CW = Clockwise rotation when looking at the shaft end of the pump/motor.

CCW = Counterclockwise ditto.

REV = Revoution(s)

See the above posts #2 & #7 for the correct pump sizes and the reasons for using one of those sizes.
Thanks. Most GT's turn CW, correct? That is a little confusing, if the tractor turns CW facing the end of the shaft) and you mount the pump with the shaft facing the tractor - I would need a CCW?

:banghead3
 

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I use my snow blower for a memory aid. When I'm sitting on the tractor looking at the back of it, it turns clockwise. A pump would turn the same with my engine orientation, north - south in the tractor with the flywheel at the rear.
 

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I use my snow blower for a memory aid. When I'm sitting on the tractor looking at the back of it, it turns clockwise. A pump would turn the same with my engine orientation, north - south in the tractor with the flywheel at the rear.
Tudor, can start just have a thread somewhere with all your responses and a quick reference index? Or maybe you should write a book on this stuff..... (I will take the first copy please.) Alternatively, maybe you could just move closer so I could bribe you with beer and cigars to hang out in my shop?


Eric
 

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Tudor, can start just have a thread somewhere with all your responses and a quick reference index? Or maybe you should write a book on this stuff..... (I will take the first copy please.) Alternatively, maybe you could just move closer so I could bribe you with beer and cigars to hang out in my shop?


Eric
Somebody should sticky some links and info to the top of the forum, learned so much....Here's a few links

That one is a good place to start. Do a search for front end loader builds. There are several.

Basic hydraulic tutorial. For specifics, check in the threads or ask.

http://www.edgeroamer.com/sweethaven.../hydraulics01/

Hydraulic pumps. (You need 0.33 - 0.39 cu-in displacement for 5 - 6 gpm flow at full throttle.)

Where you can buy hydraulic parts:
http://baileynet.com/index.php
http://www.northerntool.com/
https://www.surpluscenter.com/

And if you go to Winnipeg, Manitoba.

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/

Double pumps, a.k.a. 2 stage pumps, are for log splitters with low horsepower, not FELs.

Thread for pump sizing.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=239784

Threads for FEL general info.
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=192152
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=123377
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=226345

Another few more interesting loader builds:
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=175389
http://www.mytractorforum.com/showthread.php?t=75427 - note: this thread has that partial print of a loader

Engineered plans and pictorial reference (click on customer pics):
http://www.loaderplans.com

If anyone has anymore links to add, would be nice....
 

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Tudor, can start just have a thread somewhere with all your responses and a quick reference index? Or maybe you should write a book on this stuff..... (I will take the first copy please.) Alternatively, maybe you could just move closer so I could bribe you with beer and cigars to hang out in my shop?

Eric
Thought about it Eric, then I looked at my post count and remembered that more than a few took over 4 hours to generate. Well over a third of my posts deal with hydro transmissions in general, all aspects of FEL building and use, and basic hydraulics. Sorry, but I'm not going to be the one to wade through all those posts and edit them down to something reasonable in size and then index the complete works. I've got 5 broken tractors to work on when I'm not on the forums. I managed to work on one for an afternoon just last year. I'll just keep on winging it off the top of my head, even if I do repeat myself. But I am getting smarter and subscribing to some of the threads with the good info in them and laying the links out there. Your build is one that I have used several times, mostly for the innovative subframe, but also for the basic build info.

Please note that I have also been totally out to lunch on more than enough posts. More than a few of my comments are my opinion and not necessarily based on solid information. Do your research using what I post as a guide, not gospel.

Here's one that I contributed to on another forum pertaining to hydros. The good stuff is in the last 2 pages.

http://gardentractortalk.com/forums/topic/11997-how-do-you-run-your-hydro/

The reference to "perfect traction" in that thread reared its ugly head for one member just a few days after that thread. The result was a broken axle housing.

Note my signature, I smoke a pipe, rarely cigars, and my poison of preference is The Captain dark (Canadian beer gets me drunk after 2 bottles), but thank you muchly for the good thoughts. One of these days I'd like to take a tour around your country and see some of the great builds that I've made posts on. You all do excellent work!!
 
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