[oldsasquatch]

I have a CK 20 with about 450 hrs on it. All of a sudden has become very hard to start. Just sitting overnight even in summer, almost impossible to start without fear of burning out the starter. Starts easily/quickly when warm.
Have replaced the fuel filter and bled the cup and line. The glow plug light comes on appropriately when ignition turned on but am at a loss. Have been buying diesel from the same place the last 4 years.

Any suggestions what my problem might be would be greatly appreciated.
Have read other posts regarding water in the fuel. Might it be this or something more like a glow plug problem?:dunno:

 

[Kbeitz]

I would replace the glow plugs.
Or do an amp test to see if they are drawing curent.

 

[oldsasquatch]

Thanks for the reply.
Any idea where they're located or what they look like?

 

[Poppa Dave]

By chance, has anyone squirted any form of starting fluid into the intake?
I haven't seen this happen personally as all of my tractors are gas powered, but I hear that burns out the glow plugs on diesels.
Just wondering.

 

[oldsasquatch]

No way, Dave!! This is a one man tractor.... and that is me.
Have read about avoiding starter fluid as the heat damage can be incredible.
Thanks anyway.... looking for any kind of feedback.:thanku:

 

[oldsasquatch]

Thanks for the bit of input, Guys.
Amazing what a bit of research will do once you're given a direction.
Will be checking my glow plugs 3 different ways and should have my answer.
Can't get to it until next weekend but will be sure to post my result.
My kioti dealer is just down the street...... for parts anyway. Too **** expensive to have them look at it. Cost me an arm and a leg just to have them change the oil and grease all the fittings.

 

[UrbanTractor]

Thanks for the bit of input, Guys.
Amazing what a bit of research will do once you're given a direction.
Will be checking my glow plugs 3 different ways and should have my answer.
Can't get to it until next weekend but will be sure to post my result.
My kioti dealer is just down the street...... for parts anyway. Too **** expensive to have them look at it. Cost me an arm and a leg just to have them change the oil and grease all the fittings.

Unless there is a known problem with Kioti's glow plugs, they are the last thing I would check. Glow plugs should last a LONG time, and in warm weather they aren't even all that critical to starting.

I would suspect a fuel delivery issue. How many fuel pumps does your engine have? Some have a mechanical AND an electric pump. Make sure both are operational first.

To me it sounds like the electric pump (if you have one) may be on the fritz, leaving the mechanical pump struggling to get fuel to the engine at start-up. I have had identical symptoms in our boat's diesel.

 

[oldsasquatch]

Thanks Urban Tractor!
There is only a manual fuel pump and I'll be sure to check that as well.
:thanku:

 

[oldsasquatch]

Oops..... I meant to say only a mechanical fuel pump.

 

[UrbanTractor]

Oops..... I meant to say only a mechanical fuel pump.

The diaphragms in the mechanical pumps can deteriorate, although they usually last a fairly long time.

What year is your CK20? If it pre-dates the change-over to low-sulphur diesel, that could be the issue. The new LSD and ULSD have additives to replace lost lubricity. There are sometimes incompatibility issues between these additives and the materials used in the fuel delivery system, such as pump diaphragms and seals.

If this is the case with your tractor, then you could be looking at a fuel pump replacement -- which shouldn't be a big deal. The new parts don't have incompatibility issues with ULSD.

Hopefully it's something easier...

 

[rscurtis]

The fact that it starts easily when warm and runs OK would preclude a fuel system problem. Most likely, their is a fault in the system that controls the glow plugs. If the engine smokes white vapor in the exhaust when trying to start from cold, the fuel system is OK and most likely the GP's are not working for some reason.

 

[UrbanTractor]

The fact that it starts easily when warm and runs OK would preclude a fuel system problem. ...

Not necessarily. Those symptoms are identical to what I had when the mechanical fuel pump diaphragm began to deteriorate. It was very hard starting when cold, but once it got started and warmed up, it was fine.

I knew it wasn't the glow plugs. First, glow plugs last a long time and rarely do all fail at the same time. Second, my engine doesn't have glow plugs AT ALL!! That's right, our little 1.1 Yanmar doesn't even need glow plugs!

Most small diesels with good compression will start up just fine in temps above say 35-40F or so without glow plugs -- even when they're cold. Oldsasquatch said he was having this problem even during the warm summer months -- that says to me fuel delivery is the issue. Anyway, I'd check that before working my way to glow plugs.

 

[oldsasquatch]

1st... as far as the fuel pump is concerned. Will it be obvious to the eye if the diaphram is deteriorating?
I suppose I could at least clean it and reinstall if there's no obvious signs.

2nd... I probably do need to find out how old it is. I bought it used from the Kioti dealer in 2007 with only 200 hrs on it.

3rd... Here's an afterthought!! Round about the time I started having problems starting and never put the 2 together, was that my hour meter froze at 419 hours. Found it practically impossible to open the dash to trace the problem. Have checked all the fuses and everything is good there. I store the tractor inside 95% of the time and there are no signs of rust on any of the terminals.

Looks like I have a busy weekend in front of me.... but it all sound like fun.:fing32:

btw... it smokes the whole time while trying to start it, but I would say it's more black than white.

 

[oldsasquatch]

I'm thinkin' I probably should pull the ignition switch and have a look at that too.

Thank would probably be easier than trying to pull the dash apart.

 

[Volfandt]

All good answers and worth checking.
My swag is on 1 or 2 glow plugs not working.
I'm not sure about the Kioti, but the GP lite may not be a good indicator that they are working properly. On many models, it only takes 1 good one to complete the circuit to light the lamp, while the other two are bad.
When my BX23 was new it didn't take much if any GP to start up in the summer. Now since it's broke in, it'll take 4 to 6 sec's of GP to cold start it on the 1st try even on the hottest mornings.
If you have a multi meter, 1st make sure that you are getting voltage to all 3 GP's when they are supposed to be energized and if so, disconnect the wire to each one then read the resistance of the GP, tip to ground. On Kubota's your looking for 5 ohms but actually anywhere up to 100 ohms should work. 100 ohms or more and/or an open indicates a bad GP.
If they check out, I'd start looking at the air intake/fuel delivery systems.

Good luck
Dave

 

[oldsasquatch]

Thanks Dave.
Will have a multimeter by this weekend and the air intake also crossed my mind and will check that too!!

 

[oldsasquatch]

Okay, Here's my update!
Did a light test on the GP's and tested the circuit/voltage to the GP's and all is good. Timer is working normal too.(test light stays on 9-10secs with the key turned.
Did a resistance test to each of the 3 GP's and then all together and showing 1.2-1.9 ohms.
Pulled the fuel line and fuel pump pulsates fuel through. It smokes white while trying to start it.
Thought I had the problem discovered when I pulled the air filter and blew out tons of black soot but to no avail, even without the filter it is almost impossible to start.
Of course it starts up instantly and runs great once I get by the initial cold start.
Battery checks out.
I did not pull the fuel pump and check the diaphram as I was getting fuel through and it smoked while trying to start and of course for a short time after starting.
The only thing I haven't tried yet is pull the GP's and test point to positive/battery to see if I get a glow.
Seems to me it's a GP problem but hard to believe with the ohms being so low.
Would hate to do this if not necessary as it would be a half day job just to get at the GP's
Any and all feedback would be most appreciated!!

did check the ignition switch too and all is good there. Nice clean soldered connections.

 

[UrbanTractor]

...
Pulled the fuel line and fuel pump pulsates fuel through. It smokes white while trying to start it.
Thought I had the problem discovered when I pulled the air filter and blew out tons of black soot but to no avail, even without the filter it is almost impossible to start....

In post #14 and again now you've mentioned white smoke at start-up. As rscurtis mentioned earlier, that is usually a sign of incomplete fuel combustion. So I would agree with him, this probably rules out fuel delivery issues and glow plugs become the prime suspects, at least until you rule them out.

By the way, are you certain the air filter had black soot in it? When someone says soot, I think of the fine black particulate by-products of combustion. Could it have been normal dirt/dust? If it truly was soot in the air filter, then that is a bit of a mystery.

You don't by chance have a block heater on your engine? That would probably help get you started for the time being, even if temps aren't as cold as you'd usually use it.

 

[oldsasquatch]

I agree that it's not a fuel issue.
The black in the air filter is the same as what collects on the bucket arm from the exhaust.
I do have a block heater. took it to the dealer because I blow a circuit after about 30 seconds.... even a 20 amp circuit. Dealer said it was fine, brought it home and it still does the same thing. The heater cover does get very hot in that short amount of time.
Is there a circulator that should be turning inside the heater coil? I don't hear anything.

 

[rscurtis]

I wouldn't buy that BS from the dealer that the block heater is OK. The block heater on even a large truck engine can function on a 15 or 20 amp circuit, and your tractor engine is a far cry from that. The block heater could have a direct short to ground.

Remove one of your glow plugs and ground it, while leaving it hooked up to the power supply. Operate the GP system and see if it glows- it should be a bright red to orange. Don't start the engine with it removed. Another thing you could do is connect a voltmeter across your battery, and note the static voltage. When you energize the GP circuit, the voltage should drop noticeably. If it doesn't, the GP system is not working.