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Discussion Starter #1
OK I have a case 224 that I built to do garden tractor pulls. I didn't butcher it, everything I made is bolt on because I still you use it to blow snow, mow and soon till a garden. It has a fresh built 14 horse with a few performance upgrades:fing32: The problem I am having seems to be with the hydro pump or motor. It makes a real loud squealing sound when I start pulling and I believe it is fluid pushing through the motor. Also when I am pulling instead of it spinning out, the wheels just stop. I can not get the tires to spin even if I try and yes I am running the right fluid in it. The pump and motor might be wore out but it has no problem plowing or snowblowing and feels like its strong. All the cub guys are busting my chops and telling me to junk it and get a cub, which I refuse to do. So if anyone has any tips on what I could do to whoop there a$$es I would appreciate it.
 

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Hydraulic relief valve will squeal when it goes into "bypass"

By the "right fluid" we assume you mean motor oil. 15w40 is the common choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I use 20w50 motor oil. Where is this bypass you where talking about. I looked at a schematic of the hydraulic system before I posted on here becuase I thought that might have been was causing it but could not find one.
 

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I use 20w50 motor oil. Where is this bypass you where talking about. I looked at a schematic of the hydraulic system before I posted on here becuase I thought that might have been was causing it but could not find one.
Relief valves are integral with the travel /lift valve under the tractor.
I`m basing this on my 446, I ASSUME yours is the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Relief valves are integral with the travel /lift valve under the tractor.
I`m basing this on my 446, I ASSUME yours is the same.
So is there a way for me to raise the pop off pressure or would I have to close off the valve completely.
 

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So is there a way for me to raise the pop off pressure or would I have to close off the valve completely.
Turning the screw C.W. will increase the spring tension on the check ball and increase psi prior to bypass
If this has other negative results, I do not know.

You need Castoff or another resident guru.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Turning the screw C.W. will increase the spring tension on the check ball and increase psi prior to bypass
If this has other negative results, I do not know.

You need Castoff or another resident guru.
Thanks for your help
 

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Also when I am pulling instead of it spinning out, the wheels just stop. I can not get the tires to spin even if I try
I know zip about pulling, but I`ll venture an opinion: grippy tires, plenty of weight, major TRACTION and a CONCRETE surface, with hydraulic drive it`s going to bypass. I assume the same conditions on a gear drive will stall the engine. The stall and the the bypass are the same, you`ve reached the limit of available power.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
It might look like concrete in the pic but its actually dirt and theres john deere hydro there that pretty much cleans house on the transfer sled and when the weight gets to heavy his tractor will start to spin. If you have never been the a garden tractor pull you should go check one out, I use to truck pull my diesel and had to stop because a wife and baby are little more important then breaking my truck every weekend. I thought it was going to be pretty stupid but its actually more fun then pulling with my truck or a big tractor and its just as competitive. Its also about 100 times cheaper!
 

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If your hitch is set up properly, then you should be coming close to lifting your front wheels off the ground during the pull. If so, then this means that almost 100 percent of the tractor's weight is bearing down on the contact patch of the two rear wheels.

As the sled gets closer to the end of the track, the weight box moves to the area right above the sled's shoe plate and that too pulls down on the tractor to a degree. Less air pressure is going to increase the contact patch and make the tires less prone to slippage. So if you are reaching the point where the tractor is stopping but the engine is still running strong and all you hear is squealing, then the relief valve is opening up because the pressure being generated by the pump is exceeding the setting of the relief. The relief is there to protect the pump from damage just like a circuit breaker is there to prevent the wiring in your home from burning up and starting a fire if there is too much load being drawn.

To be honest with you, I'm not that crazy about the fact that you are trying to have your cake and eat it too...here. If you want a competitive puller, then you have to build a competitive puller that is dedicated to the sport. You are now past the beginner fun stage because you now want to do some serious ***-kicking.

Have you put your motor on a dyno? Do you know how much HP it's actually making? One of the problems with this sport is rule inconsistency. If you had a dedicated puller, you probably could have started with a K-341 block instead of the 321 you are using. As I understand it, lots of clubs allow engines up to 35 cubes so the 34 cube 341 is a good choice.

You should also be dismantling your trans-axle so you can put fresh bolts from the CAT dealership into the carrier plus welding the carrier halves together for insurance. I would also run synthetic 0W30 motor oil in the trans-axle to cut down friction losses. I would remove the drain plug from the underside of the travel valve and put an elbow fitting there and then run the smallest hydraulic hose I could buy that was rated for 4000 PSI and run it up top to a 5000 PSI glycerin filled pressure gauge so I could constantly monitor what was going on in my hydraulic system.

Right now you need to know how much pressure your pump is making when you reach the point where the tractor stops moving forward during a pull. Without that knowledge, everything is guessing. Is it my pump? Is it my relief valve? Is it my drive motor? Is it a bit of all three? Maybe it's the color of my jeans. In order to diagnose, you need hard facts. In order to know if something you have just done is actually making a difference, you need more hard facts to compare to the initial benchmark pressure a guage gives you.

So, I suggest you go to Northern Tools site and order a guage from them if your local hydraulics place can't help you with one.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
If your hitch is set up properly, then you should be coming close to lifting your front wheels off the ground during the pull. If so, then this means that almost 100 percent of the tractor's weight is bearing down on the contact patch of the two rear wheels.

As the sled gets closer to the end of the track, the weight box moves to the area right above the sled's shoe plate and that too pulls down on the tractor to a degree. Less air pressure is going to increase the contact patch and make the tires less prone to slippage. So if you are reaching the point where the tractor is stopping but the engine is still running strong and all you hear is squealing, then the relief valve is opening up because the pressure being generated by the pump is exceeding the setting of the relief. The relief is there to protect the pump from damage just like a circuit breaker is there to prevent the wiring in your home from burning up and starting a fire if there is too much load being drawn.

To be honest with you, I'm not that crazy about the fact that you are trying to have your cake and eat it too...here. If you want a competitive puller, then you have to build a competitive puller that is dedicated to the sport. You are now past the beginner fun stage because you now want to do some serious ***-kicking.

Have you put your motor on a dyno? Do you know how much HP it's actually making? One of the problems with this sport is rule inconsistency. If you had a dedicated puller, you probably could have started with a K-341 block instead of the 321 you are using. As I understand it, lots of clubs allow engines up to 35 cubes so the 34 cube 341 is a good choice.

You should also be dismantling your trans-axle so you can put fresh bolts from the CAT dealership into the carrier plus welding the carrier halves together for insurance. I would also run synthetic 0W30 motor oil in the trans-axle to cut down friction losses. I would remove the drain plug from the underside of the travel valve and put an elbow fitting there and then run the smallest hydraulic hose I could buy that was rated for 4000 PSI and run it up top to a 5000 PSI glycerin filled pressure gauge so I could constantly monitor what was going on in my hydraulic system.

Right now you need to know how much pressure your pump is making when you reach the point where the tractor stops moving forward during a pull. Without that knowledge, everything is guessing. Is it my pump? Is it my relief valve? Is it my drive motor? Is it a bit of all three? Maybe it's the color of my jeans. In order to diagnose, you need hard facts. In order to know if something you have just done is actually making a difference, you need more hard facts to compare to the initial benchmark pressure a guage gives you.

So, I suggest you go to Northern Tools site and order a guage from them if your local hydraulics place can't help you with one.
My hitch hieght it set at 13" the max allowed, I run 5 psi in each rear tire and I did replace the bolts in the carrier when I rebuilt it. You are not allowed swap engines or weld the diffs in the classes I pull in. They actually check to see if you are running a welded diff before you even get on the scale.
The classes are broke up by wieght and they dont seem to care about mods that don't have to do with the engines or welded diffs, for instance most of the cub guys are running aluminum clutchs and different pinions in their tractors. So, it isn't like I am trying to compete with straight up modded pulllers. When I get home I will post the rules for the club so you will have a better understanding of what I am trying to do.

Now when I go to take off with the transfer sled my front tires will come up and kind of float off the ground about a half inch or so. I get maybe a 1/3 of the way down down the track and the rear wheels will just just stop and it will make a squealing sound.I had figured it had a pop off valve because of the way it was acting when I was pulling but could not find where it was. I think that running a gauge up to the dash is a great idea and that with out one I am kind of ******* in the wind. I am going to try to get one tomorrow. Do you have any idea what the stock pressure should be? What do you think about me using a hydraulic motor from a 400 series? I do realize it would be much easier to build a gear drive tractor like a cub but I kind of enjoy being the underdog and really want to make this tractor work. Thank you for your advice.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I probably should have given a little more info on the tractor since I have a different weight set up on the tractor now then whats in the pic. I pull in the 1100lbs and 1250lbs class. I made a nice looking weight bracket over the top of the hitch that holds about 160lbs of weight I made from old cutting edges. I put 110lbs in each rear tire to get in the 1250 classs and 14 lbs in each rear tire to get into the 1100lbs class. I tried to keep all the weight as close to the center of the axle as I could because I don't want the front end in air the whole way down the track. I wanted the front tires to just hoover off the ground so I could maintain some steering. The motor is a fresh rebuild with just a few small things I did to get more compression and better airflow. I will try to post some pics tonight.
 

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They actually check to see if you are running a welded diff before you even get on the scale
castoff was not refering to welding the spiders, what he meant was that you should weld the two halves of the diff carrer together so it does not shear the bolts holding the two halves together.

I get maybe a 1/3 of the way down down the track and the rear wheels will just just stop and it will make a squealing sound.
just a thought... if your pressure works out to be right, and the releaf set correctly, maybe try adding some air pressure to the real tires, or changing some weight around,and alow the rear tires to spin a little at max load. That may get you a bit farther down the track.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
castoff was not refering to welding the spiders, what he meant was that you should weld the two halves of the diff carrer together so it does not shear the bolts holding the two halves together.



just a thought... if your pressure works out to be right, and the releaf set correctly, maybe try adding some air pressure to the real tires, or changing some weight around,and alow the rear tires to spin a little at max load. That may get you a bit farther down the track.
I tried running 15 psi and 20psi in the tires, I also have a weight bar that is mounted dead center on the tractor frame. I try not to use it but I put 220lbs on that bar and the tractor did the same thing. I also tried taking all the weight off and it still wouldn't spin. With all of the weight off and me on the tractor it wieghs about 820lbs I again tried with just filling the tires with ballast and that (not suprizingly) was worse. I should have re-read Castoff's post before I replied, I misunderstood what he said. I have done almost everything I could think of as far as moving weight around. I just bought a guage from northern tool like Castoff said and I will give that a try. I will start messing with the relief valve after I hook up the gauge. The nice thing about this club is that I can go and use the transfer sled or stone bolt to test and tune during the week. If you have anymore ideas I would like to hear them.
 

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My hitch hieght it set at 13" the max allowed, I run 5 psi in each rear tire and I did replace the bolts in the carrier when I rebuilt it. You are not allowed swap engines or weld the diffs in the classes I pull in. They actually check to see if you are running a welded diff before you even get on the scale.

My apologies for not making myself clear. I was NOT suggesting that you weld up the axle/carrier gears to create a solid rear end with no differential action. The welding suggested had to do with bonding the two halves of the carrier unit together because they are not indexed mechanically and this is one way to make sure the carrier halves do not shift against each other. The second problem is that the Hi and LO range gears are also not indexed to the carrier and this means that all of the torque is being applied to the four bolts that hold the two gears against the carrier.

This is a known weakness in these rear ends and it show up most often in the 400 series tractor when they are subjected to plowing in Hi range and the Hydriv is used to brake the tractor at the end of each plow run. Wheel weights and tire loading simply compound the flywheel problem. You are putting your axle components to the maximum test and the more you modify the drive train, the more stress you will be placing on these components.



The classes are broke up by wieght and they dont seem to care about mods that don't have to do with the engines or welded diffs, for instance most of the cub guys are running aluminum clutchs and different pinions in their tractors. So, it isn't like I am trying to compete with straight up modded pulllers. When I get home I will post the rules for the club so you will have a better understanding of what I am trying to do.

Now when I go to take off with the transfer sled my front tires will come up and kind of float off the ground about a half inch or so. I get maybe a 1/3 of the way down down the track and the rear wheels will just just stop and it will make a squealing sound.I had figured it had a pop off valve because of the way it was acting when I was pulling but could not find where it was.

If you have a 224, then it should have hydraulic implement lift. Under the check plate floor is the travel/lift valve. There is a relief for the implement lift and a separate relief for the travel spool. Your travel spool relief should be set at 2100 PSI from the factory. Anything less than that number at full rpm and totally stalled, would indicate a problem. The problem MIGHT be a weak pump that is so badly worn it won't develop that much pressure. The second problem MIGHT be that someone who didn't know what they were doing, changed the relief setting or the relief spring has weakened due to heat and age or the spring has actually broken.

The first thing to do is to buy the guage and install it on the test/drain port on the underside of the travel/lift valve to find out what pressure is reached when the tractor stops moving.

I think that running a gauge up to the dash is a great idea and that with out one I am kind of ******* in the wind. I am going to try to get one tomorrow.

Stem mounted guages such as this one http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_48484_48484 are available at low cost but you can also get panel mount gauges that could fit into your dash or be mounted to a bracket in a spot where the guage is easily monitored.

Do you have any idea what the stock pressure should be? What do you think about me using a hydraulic motor from a 400 series?

I was going to make this suggestion to you. There seems to be two schools of thought in the pulling world. One is to get the sled moving as fast as possible in the hopes that the momentum of the mass will carry you closer to a full pull. The other one is to try and find maximum traction and combine that with amazing grunt power and just use brute strength to take the sled the distance. Going with the 400 series motor is the same as gearing the rear end lower. You will reduce your ground speed by about 25 percent by you will also increase your torque on the rear tires by that amount. At some point, YOU are going to have to get with a good hydraulics repair guy in your town and make him your friend. He will have to teach you about gerotor motors and how they wear internally and how you can go about tightening them up to increase their efficiency.

I do realize it would be much easier to build a gear drive tractor like a cub but I kind of enjoy being the underdog and really want to make this tractor work. Thank you for your advice.
I'm happy to work with you because I share the same mindset. I would also consider playing with the hydraulic oil. This is often one of the most over-looked components because it's "just a fluid". True but it happens to be the equivalent of the driveshaft in a car or truck. It's the link that connects the engine's hp to the trans-axle and if it isn't as efficient as it could be, then performance will suffer. Normally, I am not a big fan of synthetic lubes for these tractors due to the absence of filtration. I just can't justify the extra expense even though I know that a synthetic is a superior product.

However, all oil must be kept clean if it is to do its job and when there is no filter to clean the oil, then timely oil changes are the only option to protect the components. But this is racing and racing brings different factors to the table. Lubricity (slipperyness) is one of them, as is stability and the ability to run cooler. Cool oil is thicker oil and thicker oil is more efficient oil when it comes to pumps and motors. You should be monitoring the temp of the oil in the reservoir because keeping it below the 180 F mark is ideal. So, consider installing a gauge there.

I don't know if it is possible for you to get that tractor on a wheel dyno but if you could then you could test different types and grades of oil. Just make sure each test begins with the oil at least at 100 F or above so you are comparing apples to apples. Try using single grade 40 and 50 weight dino oils and compare them to 20W50 synthetic. The dyno will tell you which is best.

Getting back to your problem.

I would order a brand new relief spring for the model/serial number of your tractor right now. Member bhildret will mail one to you as he is a dealer. If you need a new pump, then let's see if you can squeeze an A body pump in there instead of the AA body you are likely using. A new pump mount will be needed but used A-pump mounts show up on e-Bay fairly regularly. Moving to an A-body pump will allow you to jack the pressure up to around 3000 PSI and I think that by doing so, you will notice a huge difference. Pressure equates to torque and it's torque that's needed to keep your wheels turning .
 

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:sidelaugh The Cub guys are correct you know! But now lets see if we can at least get your wheels to spin;) Your going to tax your complete hydraulic system to do this , I hope your well aware of this! And you better get a fire suit just in case... You will need to crank the hydraulic pressures to the MOON!! And I personally think your pump is not up to the task at hand ! It might peak out at 3600 psi for a short time... But will destroy it in a relatively short time doing so. So you will need more pump, one capable of 5000 psi, next comes the hydraulic drive motor... the one in your rig ain't gonna take that kind of pressure ! So you will need one that can, now this is a huge issue because of the long shaft needed to run the transmission.
Then we have volume , we need lots of it to get the load moving, and as the engine starts to dog we need to back off on the volume for pressure ! This is no easy matter to address! What you now just is not going to cut it, not in that weight class, lighten your rig as much as possible and pull in a lighter class or be prepared to spend thousands of $$$$$ for the proper hydraulics and safety equipment.
I bet you Case guys were wondering why I'm not partial to this Hydraulic drive.... well now ya know.... I am a Case/ David Brown fan and love the Power Tan and White/Red tractors :thThumbsU :trink39:
 
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