[tapman]

Hi Guys, recently the PTO clutch in my 1990 4016 went up in smoke taking out the wiring and the 15volt 6amp diode. My dealer supplied me with a 5215-110 Warner clutch to replace the stock Warner 5210-40. The installation was simple and straight-forward with the exception that it did not work.
I jumpered the safety switches and extended the Green (hot +) wire and the Black ground wire to the clutch. The clutch would engage and the engine would stall, it appears the clutch will draw enough current to cause the ignition to drop out. Well I was forced to consult the pesky owner's manual and I discovered that the mysterious Diode, described above, needs to be installed across the lines before the clutch. This did not work either, the diode got hot and broke into two pieces. Is this where the diode is supposed to be installed? Or is it to be installed inline at the hot (green) wire. Perhaps it is something else, but before the clutch failed everything operated normally.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Juan

 

[RestMyCase]

Is there an attachment being driven by the clutch that is not spinning thus bogging the engine down when the clutch is engaged ? If not then I suspect you have a direct short in the PTO circuit. The diode is like a check valve that only allows the current to go in one direction. Check the plug/wiring into the back of the PTO switch for corrosion or a short. Why did you bypass the safety switches ?

:dunno:

 

[tapman]

Is there an attachment being driven by the clutch that is not spinning thus bogging the engine down when the clutch is engaged ? If not then I suspect you have a direct short in the PTO circuit. The diode is like a check valve that only allows the current to go in one direction. Check the plug/wiring into the back of the PTO switch for corrosion or a short. Why did you bypass the safety switches ?


There is no attachment being driven by the PTO clutch. I have checked the circuit from the PTO for continuity, but I will check it out more carefully. I will also check the PTO switch again. The safeties were bypassed to eliminate them first. I will reconnect them when I get this machine running.

Thank you RMC, your help is appreciated.

Juan
BTW where and how is the diode installed?

 

[eBoyDog]

There is a right and wrong way to hook up a diode, I'm not familer with the electric clutchs on the Ingersoll's but rather familer with electronics. Hooking up a simple 12 volt diode the wrong way esp if you connected to the ground wire instead of the hot side (that's assuming there are two wire connections for your new clutch) would melt the diode if its hooked up in the wrong direction.

As already described a diode is like a check valve, were did you get the new diode you wired in? One would expect that one provided as a kit would include the proper wiring instructions but a standard diode will have a triangle or a line close to the direction of the desired flow (triangle pointing to the desired direction. Yes, the diode should be on the "hot" 12 volt side with the intent that it prevents any flow backwards frome the clutch to the rest of the electrical system.

Now that's how in theory a diode should be implemented but myself I have no experience with such as I thought it was a neat upgrade to go from a shim clutchs to Ez adjust clutches on all my tractors!! Your parts manual will have the correct wiring schematic showing the proper connection for the diode.

 

[eBoyDog]

Well, I pulled up the parts manual for the 4016 with Vanguard engines and couldn't tell what the proper wiring should be, unless someone knows for sure, this would be a dealer answer as the wiring schematic is terrible and doesn't show the pinout connections of the connectors.

We need to start a movement to either get Eastman Ingersoll to provide better scanned docs of their tractor manuals or start scanning better ones ourselves esp for the electrical and hydraulic sections.

 

[tapman]

There is a right and wrong way to hook up a diode, I'm not familer with the electric clutchs on the Ingersoll's but rather familer with electronics. Hooking up a simple 12 volt diode the wrong way esp if you connected to the ground wire instead of the hot side (that's assuming there are two wire connections for your new clutch) would melt the diode if its hooked up in the wrong direction.

As already described a diode is like a check valve, were did you get the new diode you wired in? One would expect that one provided as a kit would include the proper wiring instructions but a standard diode will have a triangle or a line close to the direction of the desired flow (triangle pointing to the desired direction. Yes, the diode should be on the "hot" 12 volt side with the intent that it prevents any flow backwards frome the clutch to the rest of the electrical system.

Now that's how in theory a diode should be implemented but myself I have no experience with such as I thought it was a neat upgrade to go from a shim clutchs to Ez adjust clutches on all my tractors!! Your parts manual will have the correct wiring schematic showing the proper connection for the diode.

Hi EBD, The new diode is a standard Ingersoll part supplied by my dealer, and no instructions were attached. The diode is heat shrink covered and no markings are apparent. But, the attached wires are coded Green and Black.
I will try it on the hot side, but the manual's primitive wiring diagram shows the diode across the green, hot, and black, ground, then continued on to the clutch. This made no sense to me.

BTW my 1990 4016 is Onan powered.

Thank you for your assistance.

Juan

 

[RestMyCase]

I had assumed by your original post this was a 1990 - 4016 and had the Onan engine. The fact that the oem electric clutch burned up is a fairly common occurrence with age and I believe Ingersoll has upgraded to the proper replacement clutch. I agree the proper wiring diagram clearly shows the diode is bridged across the Green + and Black - leads to the clutch connector plug. I am not an expert on the use of the diode but it seems pretty straight forward as to it's location in the wiring diagram with green to green and black to black. If there is nothing wrong ( or was wrong before the clutch failure ) then possibly the way you had the diode wired in the first time is the cause of the current issues with the engine bogging down upon engagement of the PTO clutch. I hope someone here with electrical experience can explain why this would occur if the diode was hooked up incorrectly. I come here to learn things from the forum members and help out when I can .... I think you are on the right track ...

:thThumbsU

 

[bhildret]

The diode is to prevent damaging back current feed and arcs at the switch contact, when the clutch is disengaged.

When the electric field in the clutch collapses (at turn off), it reverses the current and tries to throw a big voltage up the positive lead, which produces the arc at the switch (eats switches).

The diode is a one-way circuit device ... that backfed voltage gets shorted to ground through the diode (eliminating the arc), but when fed normally, the electrical current must go through the coil and engages the clutch.

Very common application on things like A/C clutches (similar to PTO clutches) in automotive.

The Diode does in fact simply wire in parallel to the clutch coil, as shown in the illustrated parts manual. I don't have one in hand, but believe the wiring colors are shown correctly (green/black).

If you don't have a good diagram, drop me an eMail and I'll send you the high quality PDF file of the Onan tractor parts manual.

If the diode is backward, I would expect it to blow a fuse, but not bog down the engine ... though possibly something odd is happening with the PTO safety switch and it is shunting the voltage to the coil (but not killing it) and ruining the spark quality ...

More important, I don't recognize that clutch number as correct for the Ingersoll Onan. I could be wrong ... but it is not in our lineup to service that application. I can't immediately find the online configuration specs for that clutch. Nor can I immediately find any xref to the 5210-40, though I do recognize that as an early production Ingersoll clutch.

I would query your local dealer about the set up and why he chose that clutch. Could be part of the source of the issue ...

Brian

 

[tapman]

I had assumed by your original post this was a 1990 - 4016 and had the Onan engine. The fact that the oem electric clutch burned up is a fairly common occurrence with age and I believe Ingersoll has upgraded to the proper replacement clutch. I agree the proper wiring diagram clearly shows the diode is bridged across the Green + and Black - leads to the clutch connector plug. I am not an expert on the use of the diode but it seems pretty straight forward as to it's location in the wiring diagram with green to green and black to black. If there is nothing wrong ( or was wrong before the clutch failure ) then possibly the way you had the diode wired in the first time is the cause of the current issues with the engine bogging down upon engagement of the PTO clutch. I hope someone here with electrical experience can explain why this would occur if the diode was hooked up incorrectly. I come here to learn things from the forum members and help out when I can .... I think you are on the right track ...

Hi RMC, your assumtions are correct WRT my 4016. The original clutch lasted a bit over 1000 hrs of operation and had not been tampered with or repaired in any way, if the diode is wired incorrectly it will get very hot and physically break in half, mine did so, but this may not be typical. Perhaps this clutch, 5215-110 is drawing too much current, I will test it by replacing my battery with one of a much higher capacity.

Thank you for your helpful advise, it is greatly appreciated.

Juan

 

[tapman]

The diode is to prevent damaging back current feed and arcs at the switch contact, when the clutch is disengaged.

When the electric field in the clutch collapses (at turn off), it reverses the current and tries to throw a big voltage up the positive lead, which produces the arc at the switch (eats switches).

The diode is a one-way circuit device ... that backfed voltage gets shorted to ground through the diode (eliminating the arc), but when fed normally, the electrical current must go through the coil and engages the clutch.

Very common application on things like A/C clutches (similar to PTO clutches) in automotive.

The Diode does in fact simply wire in parallel to the clutch coil, as shown in the illustrated parts manual. I don't have one in hand, but believe the wiring colors are shown correctly (green/black).

If you don't have a good diagram, drop me an eMail and I'll send you the high quality PDF file of the Onan tractor parts manual.

If the diode is backward, I would expect it to blow a fuse, but not bog down the engine ... though possibly something odd is happening with the PTO safety switch and it is shunting the voltage to the coil (but not killing it) and ruining the spark quality ...

More important, I don't recognize that clutch number as correct for the Ingersoll Onan. I could be wrong ... but it is not in our lineup to service that application. I can't immediately find the online configuration specs for that clutch. Nor can I immediately find any xref to the 5210-40, though I do recognize that as an early production Ingersoll clutch.

I would query your local dealer about the set up and why he chose that clutch. Could be part of the source of the issue ...

Hi Brian, that is the best explanation for usage of a diode in the clutch circuit I have yet heard. The engine stalls even without the diode in the circuit, perhaps this clutch, 5215-110, draws too much current or I have a dead short in the PTO circuit. If this clutch can not be made to work in a reasonable manner I will be contacting you for the correct upgraded clutch. My 4016 is in nearly perfect condition with a bit over 1000 hrs of operation. I bought it new and cut some grass with it but it usually only putters around pulling my wife's utility cart or she may be making corrections to the lawn which I have cut with one of my other tractor.
My dealer's young son sold me that particular clutch so it may be in error.

Thank you for your helpful comments, they are greatly appreciated.

Juan

 

[tapman]

Oh ho, I slayed the beast, I finally found my wiring fault, one of the wires from the seat safety was parted under the tractor, a new wire and I was once again on the lawn.

The clutch, 5215-110, and the new diode work perfectly, I also fabricated a heat shield from some 12 gage stainless steel sheetmetal.

Thank you all for your helpful advise.
Juan