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Discussion Starter #1
Later this winter I am planning on installing a 10 HP China diesel engine in a Case 222. I am wondering if there would be any advantage to installing a larger capacity hydraulic pump at the same time. I know that the diesel engine will have more torque and should have no problem driving a (reasonably) larger pump. My concern is that I would end up just bypassing more fluid under normal operation and just creating more heat in the hydraulic system. On the other hand a diesel will create torque at lower engine speeds so perhaps I could just throttle the engine slower in normal conditions and speed it up a little when running the hydra-vac or wanting faster ground speed.

I have no plans for a hydraulic sucking front end loader so does a larger pump make sense or should I just save my money?

Ideas...?

JN
 

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I would start with the oem pump and see how it performs with the diesel. It seems some owners of the 10 HP. class felt they were just a little lacking in power under certain conditions like with a larger mower deck and/or running a hydro-vac. The 10 HP. diesel may be just right. What do you have to loose ? JMHO

:fing32:
 

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Unless you are adding something like a loader to the system there is no reason to put in a bigger pump that will just suck up more HP to run.
 

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I agree with the prior comments.

However ... you imply trying to load this up further with hydraulic vac and then presumably running the mower deck.

Make no mistake ... 10hp peak is still only 10hp ... no more than the 220 made originally.

Sure a nice torquey diesel might make those mid-RPM throttle conditions feel more strong ... but it still takes HP to run the vacuum, pull the tractor along, AND run a mower deck.

I would not plan that trio with a 10hp anything... even the 14hp Kohlers weren't stunning perfomers if you got that combo with long grass and a slight incline. I frankly felt the 16hp Onans were a bit underpowered in that condition, with a trailer full of wet grass.

IMHO

Brian
 

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I agree that "10hp is 10hp" but there's a big difference here. Power is the rate at which the work is done (we arent racing here we just need the grunt). The diesel should keep chugging along while the gasoline engine lugs down and stalls because it isnt 'torquey' enough.

I'd put a bigger pump in if you're running at slower rpm than the gasoline engine. Calculate the difference such that the flow is identical at your diesel max rpm. I dont think I'd go any higher cause you're limited by your relief settings anyway and you also dont want to damage anything or run your auxillary motors any faster than then originally.

If your RPM setting is the same as the gas I wouldnt change the flow at all. Just be happy you can run anything you want the way it was originally intended and not have to worry about stalling your engine and not screwing up the rest of the system.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Thanks guys - sounds like good advice.

I will point out that my conversion to diesel is more due to the added simplicity and superior fuel economy than for more power - though I feel the diesel is a hands-down winner over gasoline engines for operating under sustained loads. I am starting with a 10 HP diesel conversion on the 222 to get my feet wet on this type of project. My real goal is to eventually re-power my 448 with diesel. The 18 HP Onan engine runs well and has adequate power but it is a real gas hog. I am looking at diesel engines in the 18 HP range for it.

I really became aware of the difference between gasoline and diesel fuel economy when I got a Cub 4 x 4 with a 3 cyl 28 HP Perkins diesel powered compact tractor. I can mow the same 3 acres with the Cub diesel using less than a third of the fuel that the 448 uses to do the same job. In fairness the Cub has a wider deck but the difference it is very noticeable when you compare the amount of gasoline vs diesel fuel cans I need to shlep on the weekends to and from the gas station.

If you are wondering why I don't just use the Cub, I usually do where possible. But the 448 has better maneuverability around many yard obstacles and I use a trac-vac system with it to pick up heavy grass and/or leaves.

JN
 

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Many times the smaller these diesels get, the less torque they produce!!

Get the torque curves for both the gas and diesel engines and compare!!

You might be surprised. The power diesel is known for comes from a real long stroke.

The little engines have a shorter stroke, and less torque. I had the Mitsubishi MT372 2 cylinder diesel, it would not pull a 4 foot Woods pto mower due to losses through the transmission, but, did OK with a 4 foot Haban belt drive belly deck.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Interesting points - all of them. That's why I'm looking forward to actually trying it on my own and seeing what the results are. I got a real good deal on an un-used 10 HP China engine (previous owner bought it new and never used it) so we'll find out soon enough. The biggest issue I see is that the diesel engine is taller than the original gas engine so there will be hood clearance issues to deal with.

JN
 

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I'd put a bigger pump in if you're running at slower rpm than the gasoline engine
A very important point to consider in the engine swap.

We largely take for granted that these small engines will be running 3600 rpm.

This is also common for most of the small diesels, but must be specifically considered in sizing the pump ... if it's a 10hp 2400 RPM engine ... it definitely will want a bigger pump.

Brian
 

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For me added gas cans are a lot cheaper than changing anything. But the fun factor...sometimes its 'priceless'.

Dont forget mower spindle speeds in the equation...
 

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First, how good is your pump? If its worn and slipping internally, change it.

If your keen to create your own problems, consider the following:

Some people don't like the CASE speed ranges for cutting lawns. If you want more speed in low range; a bigger pump will do that. Or to cut slower in high range, use a smaller pump. Of course, the other range will be affected. And you'll screw up the speed of attachments on a hydraulic PTO. Also, keep in mind that CASE tractors have basically a 10HP power train. Even the 448's. You can't exceed that.

The OEM setup limits the hydraulic PTO to 10HP too. Its possible to increase PTO HP by using a bigger frame pump, like a SAE A mount, and allowing higher pressure at the PTO with a separate relief. Something to consider when you move to the 448.

Personally, I'd go for a similar volume (0.61 in.cu.) SAE A pump, mounted via a bell housing to ensure proper alignment, and easy installation (assuming 3600rpm engine). Then you'll run out of room.

I have no plans for a hydraulic sucking front end loader so does a larger pump make sense or should I just save my money?
Ideas...?
JN
You don't need a lot of HP for a front end loader, 5 HP would be adequate for the hydraulics, more important is a heavy solid tractor.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Dont forget mower spindle speeds in the equation...
Very good point. Regardless of the hydraulics the belt driven mower (and snow blower) are directly effected by engine RPM. A change in drive pulleys would be needed to compensate for different engine speeds.

Lots of good input and suggestions here guys! It is all very appreciated. Frankly, the first go round with this conversion will be utilizing the existing pump. Since I bought the tractor with a blown engine I don't even know the condition of it but replacing a pump will be relatively straight forward compared to the installation of the diesel engine itself. Once the engine is installed and running I expect that I will be learning a lot in a hurry. The information that everyone has contributed here will be very helpful in evaluating results and possible required changes as I go along. I will keep everyone updated as I learn more.

JN
 
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