[bobbakall]

My 48 8N had been hard to start. It would turn over but failed to start. I ran the battery down and recharged it. I took off the coil and distributor cap to clean them up. It started up! After a week it would not start. It was turning over but now just a clunk. I tried to jump start it by hooking up my car (12v) directly to the starter post and ground to the running board but just a spark. When I push the starter the solenoid clicks shut and the post on the generator gets hot if I do this on and off. The crank pully moves just a 1/8 inch. It seems like the starter is stuck as I can feel the starter move or rotates just a bit. :dunno::dunno: I want to buy a hand crank to see if I can turn the engine. I am trying to rule out weak 6 v Napa battery but cells show 3 balls or 75%. My charger on 6 v only has a 10 amp selection vs 2 and 10 for 12 volts, I don't want to cook the battery. Could this be a starter problem? I plan on buying a tune up kit with 437 autolite plugs, cap , points and rotor. I have the h10 champions now. Also thinking about a starter brush set. I have attempted to loosen the 2 long starter bolts. The outside one is 1/2 inch hex and moves, the inboard one is 7/16 and won't move. I sprayed PB blaster to loosen the rust but it little room since the block drain is near by. I have had the tractor for 4 yrs and this is the first problem. Any suggestions?

Bob :dunno:

 

[JohnW]

If it won't turn with the 12v then you need to do some investigating before you tear something up. There is no need to buy a hand crank you have two of the best already on the tractor, 11.2x28 rear tires. Put it in a high gear and see if you can turn the motor by turning one of the rear tires. You can rock it enough to make sure it is not a locked up engine or to get a starter to release (if it is going to). Would also be a really good idea to remove the spark plugs to be sure it is not hydro locked.

As for the starter bolt DO NOT get in a hurry give the penetrating oil time to work. Some tapping with a hammer on the bell housing and the end of the bolt will help the oil soak in, also some heat on the bell housing.

 

[bobbakall]

Thanks for the suggestions! I had placed it in gear, 1st thru 4th and reverse and rocked it back and forth. Problem is is in facing in a shed with the rear tires out with a brush hog attached. Should I jack it up and turn the rear wheel? I imagine I have to use a box wrench on the 7/16 hex inside bolt on the starter since the drain **** too close to get a socket and wrench on it. What about a socket swivel attacked to a hand impact tool that I have for motorcycle case screws? I will be cautions since I don't want to round off the hex head. I removed all 4 plugs, replaced them after about an hour of rocking the tractor in various gears. Before it "locked" up it was turning over nicely except for a little kick back and starter pinion spinning.

 

[Dollar Bill]

"It was turning over but now just a clunk. I tried to jump start it by hooking up my car (12v) directly to the starter post and ground to the running board but just a spark."

I suspect the Bendix has succumbed to the extra grunt supplied by the 12 volt jump start and is now jammed into the flywheel.

Disconnect the bush hog and drag it out of the way.

Possible solutions for a jammed Bendix - Least destructive first:

1. Transmission in fourth gear and with a big helper, grab the rear tires and try to rock it forward and backward.

2. Pull the tractor backwards with the transmission in fourth gear. Ensure the engine isn't hydro locked before doing this - Remove the plugs.

3. Try to get a socket on the front crank pulley to rotate the engine backwards just a bit to loosen and hopefully free the starter.

4. Drive a chisel between the starter end plate and the bell housing - Aiming the chisel toward the front of the tractor. You will need a new starter when you get it off but it's faster than splitting the tractor.

Remove the starter housing and use a pipe wrench to turn the starter shaft clockwise a few revolutions. Again, new starter required.

When you finally get the starter out, take a gander at the teeth on the ring gear to make sure they aren't boogered up.

Keep us posted.

 

[Wild Horse Hans]

I notice that you said you used your car at 12v to jump that tractor at 6v. You also said you put the ground cable on the foot rest. The tractor is positve ground so I wonder if you may have fried the windings in the starter and that is why it is locked up. Double the voltage in a direct short and if your car was running at the time it was more like 16v. Just a thought.
Also the kick back and starter spinning is pretty much normal for an engine that is trying to start, but just is not catching.

 

[JohnW]

If the starter bolt will not give it up after soaking a bit and you are not willing to give the penetrating oil time to work (if does take time, days) then take a hack saw and cut the head of the bolt off and take the starter off in pieces. Then you can get to the blockto soak and heat it as needed to remove the bolt from the bell housing.

As for trying to turn the engine, jack up one of the wheels and put it in 4th gear then try rocking it and see if there is any motion at all in the crankshaft. Spark plugs out.

 

[Dollar Bill]

I notice that you said you used your car at 12v to jump that tractor at 6v. You also said you put the ground cable on the foot rest. The tractor is positve ground so I wonder if you may have fried the windings in the starter and that is why it is locked up. Double the voltage in a direct short and if your car was running at the time it was more like 16v. Just a thought.
Also the kick back and starter spinning is pretty much normal for an engine that is trying to start, but just is not catching.

Jumping at the terminal lug on the starter isolates the 6 volt tractor battery. The tractor battery doesn't connect until you hit the starter button on the shifter cover.

 

[bobbakall]

After spraying the inner starter bolt each morning and evening since Saturday I was able to loosen it thanks to all the suggestions. I have also started to spray the starter to bell housing as well as the bolt end(brushes) anticipating removal. The inner bolt backs out but runs into the block drain. I think if I open the drain the bolt will slide past ?
I read you can spin the starter with 12 volts. I had the iginition off and just connected to the starter lug and grounded to the running board for a second but just a "clunk" and no spin. I assume if you bypass the solenoid this way the 12v is isolated from the 6 volt system.

The crank pulley has a racket, no bolt to turn. I assume this is to receive a starter crank handle thru the king pin hole in front. I am thinking I should get a handle so I can see if I can rotate the crank back and forth. The starter wants to crank the engine clockwise. I will however follow the suggestion to jack up the rear and turn the rear wheel while in gear hoping to free up the starter gear if jammed or see if the engine rotates. I will pull the plugs out first.

 

[Dollar Bill]

 

[JohnW]

Removing the drain is a tried and true method and yes it is perfectly safe to turn the starter with 12v as long as you do grind on it, nor should you grind on it with 6v either one will over heat the starter windings. Unless you have locked the transmission in two gears turning the back wheel will give you more leverage to turn the engine than a hand crank. If you have the spark plugs out you should be able to turn the engine with the fan belt provided the engine is not locked up.

 

[bobbakall]

I pulled the plugs, jacked up the rear wheels, placed trans in 4th and turned the rear tire. The opposite tire turned in the opposite direction, no engine movement. I then jacked up only 1 tire and no engine movement either. I also tried in R and 1st. I can rock the tractor back and forth a bit when in gear.

The pix of the pulley bolt is worth 1K words! I couldn't see the hex either in the master parts book diagram or assembly book. What size is the hex? It's a tight fit with an open end wrench but 1 " is the biggest I have in SAE maybe a 32mm . I tried an adjustable cresent but seems too bulky to fit in there at an angle.

I keep spraying the starter. The 2 bolts are free and when backed both out I can move the starter but the silver end mated to the trans case doesn't budge so am still sprayin PB blaster at the joint surfaces.

I am just a little hesitant on trying to pull the starter out in pieces I there is something else I might try first.

Again thanks for all the suggestions/ support.

Bob

 

[Dollar Bill]

Well, you could try the suggestions I made on 8/21/13.

 

[JohnW]

I am just a little hesitant on trying to pull the starter out in pieces I there is something else I might try first.

Bob

Take it off and get it out of the way they are not hard to put back together. Did the crankshaft move any at all when you rocked the tractor? If not you have bigger problems than a starter.

 

[bobbakall]

The BPBlaster did its work. I was able to remove the starter in 1 piece after backing off the 2 long starter bolts. I just moved it up and down and it just slid out. I noticed the ring gear had a couple of mangled or broken teeth. I then jacked up the rear tire turned it after placing in 4th. The engine turned over! I then turned the engine over using the fan blade so I could watch the ring gear thru several revolutions. Only 2 or 3 mangled teeth. I removed the brush cover on the starter and the brushes looked OK. The bendix seemed to be well lubed and I could spin it up and down the shaft easily so I put the starter back in, reconnected the wires and hit the starter button with the plugs out and ignition off. It turned over nicely. I replaced the plugs but before I try to start it up is there anything I should do?

I just bought an ignition tune up kit with autolite 437 plugs. The current plugs are Champion H-10s. I have read the manual and the tutorials one line to build up my courage to pull the distributor off the engine.

Thanks for all the support and suggestions! After reading some of the responses I got a sinking feeling that there was an engine problem.

Bob

 

[mla2ofus]

Just remember w/ good compression the engine will stop in one of four different positions in relation to the starter, so the trouble w/ the broken teeth will probably come back to haunt you.
Mike

 

[Dollar Bill]

The bendix seemed to be well lubed and I could spin it up and down the shaft easily

1. No lube on the Bendix - Attracts dirt and causes it to hang up on frosty mornings.

2. If you have a positive drive Bendix, you should not be able to spin it up and down the shaft easily.

I put the starter back in, reconnected the wires and hit the starter button with the plugs out and ignition off. It turned over nicely. Why would you put a starter back in service that just took you two weeks to get off without replacing the drive??

 

[JohnW]

The bendix seemed to be well lubed and I could spin it up and down the shaft easily

1. No lube on the Bendix - Attracts dirt and causes it to hang up on frosty mornings.

2. If you have a positive drive Bendix, you should not be able to spin it up and down the shaft easily.

I put the starter back in, reconnected the wires and hit the starter button with the plugs out and ignition off. It turned over nicely. Why would you put a starter back in service that just took you two weeks to get off without replacing the drive??

Yes what he said!

As was stated in another post the engine will stop in only certain postions so this will come back at some point unless you split the tractor and replace the ring gear.

 

[figgskzoo]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this seemed like the most appropriate place for this question.

I'm in the midst of a clutch job which (of course) has turned into much more. It's time to rebuild the motor. I have a knock and low oil pressure so I'm just going to bite the bullet and have a full bottom end done with new sleeves, rings, pistons, rods, oil pump, etc.

Now for the explanation of the issue: Once I got the tractor split, and was looking at the starter bendix and the flywheel, the idiot in me took over and I started fiddling around with the starter bendix moving it in and out manually by turning the drive gear independently of the starter motor shaft thereby activating the bendix spiral and moving the drive gear up the shaft toward the flywheel and then engaging the flywheel. The drive gear then sort of stuck upon the bendix and remained engaged in the flywheel and I could not get it to 'retract' out of being engaged with the flywheel. Then I thought when I pull the flywheel off, I'd be able to manually move the bendix and drive gear around to get the drive gear to retract (move away from the starter motor). Well, despite quite a few frustrating moments of trying, I could not get the bendix to fully retract back and cover the spiral section of the mechanism. Pictures of this are attached. The last picture shows the drive gear as far retracted as I can get it to go.

And now the questions: What do I need to do to get the bendix to retract all the way? Do I actually need to get it to retract prior to re-installing it? Did I maybe let out the magic smoke? Do I have some kind of aftermarket bendix? Mine doesn't look like the one in the FSM. Of note, my bendix has *never* stuck or jammed in the flywheel during normal use.

Thanks in advance for any input.

 

[JohnW]

Just gotta spin it up to get it to retract, most folks do it with a wire brush on a bench grinder. Hold the bendix against the spinning brush and when you get the bendix spinning fast enough it will retract.

 

[figgskzoo]

Thanks John. Much obliged.