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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm moving out of the city the end of the month and the first order of business was to find a small tractor. This week I found a good condition 4016 on craigslist and worked a deal out with the owner, who is delivering it on Sat. It has a 48" deck, 54" blade, a rototiller (6 hp gas), cultivator, and some tire chains. The only negative is the engine is not-original and is a 12.5 hp Briggs and Straton commercial/industrial. The owner says it is powerful enough for the tractor to run well, but has priced the tractor accordingly at $2100 for the package. It only has 752 hours, so I wonder why the new engine was put in? I guess when it eventually goes I'll replace it with something bigger. The ad was deleted from CL, so I'll have to wait to post pictures until after it arrives. I'm pretty stoked.

I have a quick question for the experts here. This tractor says it has an electrical PTO, but the back only shows a three point and not a PTO shaft. Where is the PTO located?
 

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A STOCK 4016 has an "electric switched PTO" mounted on the engine to power belt driven accessories ( mid mount mower deck/ snowcaster) The OPTIONAL rear PTO would be hydraulic (lines & valve) and drive various rear mounted attachments. There is no rear SHAFT . Without the rear PTO setup it explains why the seller has a non Ingersoll tiller with an independent engine, the factory unit is driven by hydraulic power and has no mechanical drive connection
You can assume the current set-up has no ability to power rear implements. However, given the fact that this unit has undergone some "mods" I could be wrong
 

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I have never seen anyone repower with a Briggs C/I engine. Vanguards? Absolutely. So I really have to wonder just how well this work was carried out. My first concern would be with the electric PTO clutch that is supposed to be mounted on the output shaft of the engine. Is it in the correct position so that you will be able to use OEM belts to power the deck and a snowcaster if you buy one?

Secondly, neither Case nor Ingersoll ever made a roto tiller with a gas engine on it. Their tillers are all driven hydraulically using the optional PTO. I also have to wonder why this tractor needed a new engine if it truly had less than 700 hours on it. I realize that prices paid are subject to regional variations but this deal would have been one I ran away from. Sorry... but that's just my opinion. YMMV
 

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I have never seen anyone repower with a Briggs C/I engine. Vanguards? Absolutely. So I really have to wonder just how well this work was carried out. My first concern would be with the electric PTO clutch that is supposed to be mounted on the output shaft of the engine. Is it in the correct position so that you will be able to use OEM belts to power the deck and a snowcaster if you buy one?

Secondly, neither Case nor Ingersoll ever made a roto tiller with a gas engine on it. Their tillers are all driven hydraulically using the optional PTO. I also have to wonder why this tractor needed a new engine if it truly had less than 700 hours on it. I realize that prices paid are subject to regional variations but this deal would have been one I ran away from. Sorry... but that's just my opinion. YMMV
I agree completely. Not to be mean but it sounds like a "frankenstein" of a tractor that has been thrown together. The non C/I implements make them worthless compared to their counterparts in my eyes.

If the money is still in your pocket I would walk away from that deal.
 

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I don't like to make judgement on somebody's decision to buy but this time my advise would be to " get out of that deal " if at all possible. Your buying a " pig in a pope ". JMO

:thSick:
 

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I will disagree with running away, I have seen several Onans under 1000 hours that loose valve seats or have other issues, doesnt mean the rest of the tractor is junk. BUT it does warrent a much closer inspection of the tractor, condition of the hy-drive system ect. Nothing wrong with a non Case tiller, we sell lots of 3pt mount tillers at my shop that have their own engine. For some folks, the cost of finding and installing the rear hyd PTO, then buying the hyd PTO tiller are either to expensive or to hard to locate in thier area. I know I dont see many Case tillers in my neck of the woods. That being said, I would be giving the tractor a good run before handing over the $$ to the seller. Just my 2 cents. Mike
 

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I will disagree with running away, I have seen several Onans under 1000 hours that loose valve seats or have other issues, doesnt mean the rest of the tractor is junk. BUT it does warrent a much closer inspection of the tractor, condition of the hy-drive system ect. Nothing wrong with a non Case tiller, we sell lots of 3pt mount tillers at my shop that have their own engine. For some folks, the cost of finding and installing the rear hyd PTO, then buying the hyd PTO tiller are either to expensive or to hard to locate in thier area. I know I dont see many Case tillers in my neck of the woods. That being said, I would be giving the tractor a good run before handing over the $$ to the seller. Just my 2 cents. Mike
I not sure that anyone is disputing the possible utility of the tractor / implement combination. I believe that the dollar amount is what`s generating the uncertainy. At least, that`s my concern :sorry1::sorry1::sorry1:
 

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location location location. I have seen every brand at every price point. I am just thankfull I dont live in Canada, those poor chaps really get hit in the wallet when buying older garden tractors. Both hard to locate and very expensive. I have seen run of the mill older cub cadet 129's ect bring 1200-1900 in good shape. I hope it works out for him. Nobody wants to see a fellow tractor guy get stuck with a bad deal. I am curious how well the 12.5 B&S looks in that machine. That was definatly the "cheap" way out. I would have put a Vanguard 16hp or similar twin cylinder in, not a single cylinder 12.5. Mike
 

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If you are just going to be mowing a simple flat lawn, the 12.5 Briggs will probably suffice. However, if you want to push snow, pull logs around the property, or move dirt, the engine might fall short for you. These are heavy tractors and require a strong engine to move the tractor while it is working. I also worry about the engine being properly installed to the hydraulic pump and not damaging it due to wobble or lack of proper balancing. Many parts and engines can be made to fit together but that does not mean they work correctly resulting in premature wear on parts or failure outright. I don't blame you wanting an ingy, it is the best home owner type lawn and garden tractor you can buy as far as I am concerned. I like the steiners but I think they are too pricey and over built for an average homeowner application, so ingy is the best choice imho. The array of options and the efficiency of a true hydraulic tractor is amazing. Everything should be made as well.

If you committed to the buy it is admirable you are sticking to the decision. If it is possible you can really test out the tractor prior to purchase and walk away if it does not perform, so much the better. Ingy's come and go all of the time, you just have to be a bit diligent in looking for them.
 

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The package price is $2100.00.

A mint utility blade could bring $400.00 on e-Bay

A good Ingersoll tiller could bring another 400.00

A three-point HH-34 would likely bring $450.00

Chains ---- another $50.00

To me, the self-powered tiller might be worth $200.00 at best.

So, if you add the value of the tiller to the blade, chains and 3 point, you come up with $700.00 on the outside. That leaves the tractor and the deck to make up the remaining $1400.00. We have no idea what year this 4016 was made. They began this model in 1989 so it could be 21 model years old or it could be much less. We don't know if it had an Onan in it or a Vanguard.

What we do know is that it has the WRONG engine in it and when that happens, the value of the tractor drops like a stone. Ask any dealer. Most won't even take a unit like that in on trade because it's a pariah. No one can go to a parts manual for that serial and model number and say that this part is what's needed. Now, you have to figure out which parts are OEM and which parts have been changed. That's why a savvy dealer won't touch one of these.

To me, the tractor and deck would be worth perhaps $600.00, no more. I'd run it until I could find the CORRECt engine for it and then remove that budget priced motor. It's an opinion. You don't have to agree with me.
 

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If you can bail on deal then I would and don't worry there are always more fish in the sea. If not try and get the original engine at least, sometimes they can be repaired and if not you can part it out to get some dollars for the correct engine.
 

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SPH77,
If you are still reading here, I'm sure that the responses you got were not what you expected and in a way, I'm sorry for that. I know that you came on this forum totally pumped about your new purchase and just wanted to share your joy with everyone here. Believe me when I say that you would have received a far different response if you had reported that this tractor still had the original engine or even a direct replacement engine in it and that it came with the hydraulic tiller.

While you might feel that the members here have cut you with a thousand knives, the advice has been given with the best of intentions. Most of the regulars on the forum have been involved with these tractors for a good number of years. Some own many Case and/or Ingersoll tractors. They know values of the them because they either buy and sell or they collect or they part them out or they watch listings on all the well-known sites.

The last thing any one of us wants to see happen is for a new Case or Ingersoll owner to be unhappy with his purchase. We want him/her to buy something that reflects the quality we know the brand has and because we are all frugal with our money, we don't want anyone to overpay either. We're all happy that you've realized what a great tractor the Ingersoll is and chosen to buy one but we truly wish that you had come here first and run this one by us in advance of making this deal.

If no money has exchanged hands and no paperwork has been signed, then you can walk away from this if you choose to. You are not legally bound to complete the deal. Your morals may be bruised by doing so but if you knew back then what you know now, you would not have even made the offer... right? Knowledge is a useless commodity unless you put it to work for you. I'm guessing that this was to be a long-term purchase for you so you need to buy the RIGHT tractor at the RIGHT money or you will be unhappy everytime you swing your leg over the seat.

I'm not totally against repowering but this one makes me shudder. If he had chosen a Kohler Command Pro V-twin or a Kawasaki twin or a Honda twin or a Vanguard twin or a Linamar twin, then that would be different. But to stick a 12.4 hp cheap-*** B & S I/C engine into an Ingersoll is like putting an engine from a Yugo into a Rolls-Royce.

And when someone makes such a foolish decision as that, it casts a huge cloud over everything else they have done with this tractor since owning it. Secondly, this is the very first time that I have ever heard about someone using a self-powered tiller behind a Case or Ingersoll. Once again, such a move tells me that this guy is so cheap, his pants squeak while he walks. I'm not saying that self-powered tillers are bad. They serve their purposes on "lesser tractors" that are not blessed with an industrial quality hydraulic system like the Case and Ingersoll tractors have.

One of the whole reasons to own this brand is because of the hydraulics. That's what sets these tractors apart from the rest of the crowd out there. None of them can do what this brand can do, except dream.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for the input. I don't usually check my e-mail at night, so missed the comments until this morning. Apparently, the tractor is all original except for the motor. The tiller was built by a previous owner who was a welder. I assume he had the parts and time, and wanted to make something that would be inexpensive and functional. I know it doesn't add much monitary value to the tractor, but it does make it much more useful.

The current owner bought the tractor two years ago planning on doing an engine swap, and recently decided to upgrade to a larger tractor with a FEL. I figured I could buy this tractor, use it, and when the engine eventually goes out, then replace it with a better engine. I can't imagine it would be that difficult of a job (I've replacement an engine on an old pickup before and it only took an afternoon). What does a replacement engine cost? What would the value of the package be if I put in a replacement engine?

It is not too late for me to walk away on this deal, if I so choose.
 

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I have no problem with anything you just wrote except for one thing. The price of this deal.

Proper repower kits are available from Jim's in the form of Vanguard engines and often from SEW (small engine warehouse) but you can expect to pay upwards of $1500.00 for them by the time they reach your doorstep. So.. if you look at this deal, you will have $2100.00 plus $1500.00 for a total of $3600.00 plus your time to do the swap plus some other parts that you didn't anticipate having to replace into this tractor.

Realistically, a cobbled -together tiller is very low value on the open market because few people will want to take a chance on it unless they get it for a very low price. That leaves you with a utility blade that might fetch $250.00 or so on e-Bay and a set of $50.00 tire chains plus a tractor that won't bring as much as what it cost for the repower kit if you put the tractor and deck on e-bay.

Of course, it is your money and I'm not here to tell you how to spend it. All I can tell you is that dealers have much better tractors for sale for a lot less money than $3600.00. And even if it costs you a few hundred to have something top-notch shipped to you, then it will be worth it in the long run. If you told me you can get this tractor for around a grand or so, then I'd be singing a different tune because if it does have a OEM HH-34 hitch and an Ingersoll blade, then right there you have $750.0 in value that can be transferred to another tractor or sold outright.

I also wish you knew the serial number of this tractor because we could tell you the year of manufacture. The rule of thumb is 50 hours of use per year on average for a GT. The problem with hour meters is that they often lie. People disconnect them, they can fail and get replaced or you find out that it isn't working after the tractor arrives and you've paid for it.

Hour meters help but you have to look hard at every tractor for tell-tale signs that it isn't what the hour meter is saying it should be. Paint overspray is a dead give-away that someone is tarting up the local dog to pawn her off. Wrong parts, broken or worn-out parts, duct tape, baling wire, butchered wiring harness's, bent parts, missing parts, excessive build up of dirt/oil/grease in tough to reach areas are all things that make you scratch your head and tweak your gut.

So, this isn't about your skills as a mechanic. It's just about whether there is $2100.00 worth of tractor package there or not. The chorus is pretty unanimous. Walk from this deal or get him to drop his pants big-time. It was his decision to put that engine in there so he's the one that needs to accept the responsibility, not you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Well, it kind of stunk reading the responses, but I am grateful and cancelled on the purchase. I'll keep my eyes open and see what else shows up. Thanks for everyones advice.
 
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