[Mrrrkva]

I have a John Deere 317. 1982. I changed the hydrostatic fluid and filter with Deere Low-Vis HiGard after reading some on this board, However after reading some more some said to go back with the Red F type. What do you guys think?

Also I bought the 10w30 Deer motor oil turf guard for the winter. and was going to straight 30 this summer. I read on the forum ROTELLA is a good brand. But AFTER I bought it I saw that was for heavy duty DIESEL engines. It is also 5w-40 which was suggested as well. I have Kohler KT17 QS Engine.


Thanks again!

Matt

 

[Justy37]

Well rotella makes things like 10w-30 also. But, diesel gas engine pretty much the same oil except maybe some extra additives to help fight ash build up. But even though it says diesel, I've been using it in gas engines for over 30 years now. Started first using it in a harley, when I could get on one.

Also, check your manual. I like using 5w-30 winter because it's easier to start. Summer I usually use 10w-30. Some engines say to use 10w-30 because it's thinner and cools off faster than lets say 10w-40.

 

[TUDOR]

Either fluid is acceptable for the hydro. I use Dexron for my Sundstrand.

If you're using your tractor in the winter, do the engine oil and filter changes in the fall. Most folk put fewer hours on the tractor in winter than in summer, and there is no dust to contaminate the oil or the air filter when snow is covering the land. They'll both be good for the next summer's operations.

Winter grades of oil work for summer use quite well. The same cannot be said for summer weight oil in winter service.

 

[Rydplrs]

AFT-f works but hygard is the recomended fluid. JD no logner recommends ATF-F i believe.

you cannot go wrong using the OEM specified oil. They made their original recommendation using science and oil analysis data. I doubt the other oil manufactures ever test their oil in a Kohler KT, let alone thousands of hours worth which is what JD and Kohler have done.

 

[TUDOR]

AFT-f works but hygard is the recomended fluid. JD no logner recommends ATF-F i believe.

you cannot go wrong using the OEM specified oil. They made their original recommendation using science and oil analysis data. I doubt the other oil manufactures ever test their oil in a Kohler KT, let alone thousands of hours worth which is what JD and Kohler have done.

In this case, the OEM is Sundstrand, not John Deere, who states that "Most quality hydraulic fluids can be used."

I have yet to see a Sundstrand spec sheet that specifically lists JD Hygard. I have seen Sundstrand spec sheets where ATF Type F is listed as a specified fluid.

Do not confuse the tractor manufacturer's recommendation with the hydro manufacturer's specification.

 

[tmcalavy]

F ATF works, but is on the way out I believe...I bet Hygard is not. Best price is for the gallon jug at your JD dealer.

 

[Rydplrs]

In this case, the OEM is Sundstrand, not John Deere, who states that "Most quality hydraulic fluids can be used."

I have yet to see a Sundstrand spec sheet that specifically lists JD Hygard. I have seen Sundstrand spec sheets where ATF Type F is listed as a specified fluid.

Do not confuse the tractor manufacturer's recommendation with the hydro manufacturer's specification.

so sundstrand built the spool valve and hoses?

I didn't think so. good day

Did you also know that Dex IV is not backward compatible with Dex III? Allison had to release their own fluid spec because GM droppod DexIII and made DevIV supposedly backward compatible according to them, but it Is not compatible with the seals in the allison transmission

 

[Rydplrs]

here is the sunstrand service manual.

nowhere does it recommend any version of Dextron

http://files.danfoss.com/documents/bln-9646.pdf

 

[FuzzFace2]

Well rotella makes things like 10w-30 also. But, diesel gas engine pretty much the same oil except maybe some extra additives to help fight ash build up. But even though it says diesel, I've been using it in gas engines for over 30 years now. Started first using it in a harley, when I could get on one.

Also, check your manual. I like using 5w-30 winter because it's easier to start. Summer I usually use 10w-30. Some engines say to use 10w-30 because it's thinner and cools off faster than lets say 10w-40.

Justy, watch the Rotella oil for diesels in gas motors. Diesel oil does not have the anti-foam like gas oil does. Know that diesel motors do not run high RPM like gas motors the high RPM makes the oil foam and then you are sucking foam (air).

Now this is for ALL modern oil made to be used in newer cars & trucks it has less zinc. Now this may not be a big deal on our tractor or lawn mower motors but if using this modern oil in older cars & trucks and hot rods with high valve spring pressure as the cam & lifters will wear out in no time. The zinc adds a film between cam & lifter to keep them from wearing. Modern cars/trucks use roller cams and don’t need the zinc. Zinc was removed because of pollution issues. If all you can get is modern oil also pick up a bottle of zinc to add to the older car/truck motor.

I know this because I also play with older cars (AMC’s) both for street & drag race and new motor parts (blocks & cranks) are no longer made. So the next time you go reaching for oil just think of the above.
Dave ----

edit: the new Rotella does not have the zinc needed for the older cars/trucks.

 

[Rydplrs]

In this case, the OEM is Sundstrand, not John Deere, who states that "Most quality hydraulic fluids can be used."

I have yet to see a Sundstrand spec sheet that specifically lists JD Hygard. I have seen Sundstrand spec sheets where ATF Type F is listed as a specified fluid.

Do not confuse the tractor manufacturer's recommendation with the hydro manufacturer's specification.

I miss read your post. Please accept my apologie for my response and tone. I see we agree much more on substances then we disagree about perspective on the subject. You always share great hydraulic ideas and explanations.

I don't have anything against type f, except there have been a couple times I be drained red fluid and refilled with hygard and transmissions got better. It has yet to happen when I drain clear hygard. That red fluid may well have been the original dyed hygard??? I go with hygard because that, price is near equal, and so is availability.

 

[TUDOR]

so sundstrand built the spool valve and hoses?

I didn't think so. good day

Did you also know that Dex IV is not backward compatible with Dex III? Allison had to release their own fluid spec because GM droppod DexIII and made DevIV supposedly backward compatible according to them, but it Is not compatible with the seals in the allison transmission

Spool valves contain 2 Buna-N O-rings per spool. Buna-N is compatible with all petroleum hydraulic fluids, as well as the synthetics that L&G owners are likely to open their wallets far enough to purchase. Hydraulic cylinders use the same material for seals and O-rings.

Likewise, hydraulic hoses are also compatible with all of the hydraulic fluids that are likely to be purchased by the consumer.

See the top right corner of page 15 of this Sundstrand manual.

You will note that I did not say that Sundstrand recommended Dexron. I said that that is the fluid that I use and have used for 2200 hours in my hydro. It meets the Allison C-3 spec that Sundstrand stipulates. It's been 9 years since that tractor was used, and some years more since the hydro fluid was changed and Dexron, not Dexron II, III, or IV, was still available at that time. I'm hoping to get it back in service this winter.

While Dexron IV may not be compatible with Allison's new seals and spec, that does not indicate that it will not be compatible with the O-rings and seals in a GT's hydro and hydraulic system. Allison made the change, not Sundstrand. It is backward compatible with GM transmissions which use the same Allison C-3 fluid spec.

 

[Rydplrs]

Thank you for the explanation of the other components. I miss read you comments. As for the Allison, it's actually it's the pre 2005 mid year trucks. The new trans are compatible with dex VI. When gmail released it Allison changed the internal seals. Unfortunately approved Dex III was discontinued and is nla. So Allison made the TES-295 standard for universal compatibility. Its the difference of two types of viton. JD has one of 4-5 fluids approved by Allison. Trans-syn. Mobile 1atf isn't approved, Mobil delvac is. This all has to do with seal choice and lifespan in the fluids and their additive packages. I guarantee JD has the data to back their recommendations. This is not my expertise, but in what I do I can say good enough. And works the same seldom actually mean that even when chemically indistinguishable. This is why data matters.

 

[TUDOR]

I've never suggested that one fluid is better than another, only that it is an acceptable alternative. In this part of the world, the nearest JD dealer may be 150 miles away, but Joe's Gas and Lotto Tickets is probably right around the corner should an emergency transfusion be required in a blizzard, and it would be best if the handiest fluid available is the same as what is currently in the hydro. I do not recommend mixing additive packages.

Since the hydros under discussion are 25-45, years old, I'm not sure how much negative effect the current crop of newly specced fluids might have, if any. Additive packages change constantly, dino oil not so much, When you consider that vegetable oil with the right additives will also work well . . . :dunno:

 

[rubadub]

Either fluid is acceptable for the hydro. I use Dexron for my Sundstrand.

If you're using your tractor in the winter, do the engine oil and filter changes in the fall. Most folk put fewer hours on the tractor in winter than in summer, and there is no dust to contaminate the oil or the air filter when snow is covering the land. They'll both be good for the next summer's operations.

Winter grades of oil work for summer use quite well. The same cannot be said for summer weight oil in winter service.

If you have a heated garage then it doesn't matter what weight oil you use because the engine isn't started when its cold.

Rob

 

[TUDOR]

If you have a heated garage then it doesn't matter what weight oil you use because the engine isn't started when its cold.

Rob

Lucky you. :fing32:

Around here it has been known to snow enough to have to plow driveways every day for 2 weeks straight, sometimes twice in one day. There is no way that I want that much water on my garage floor in the winter when it is -20° outside. It takes too long to evapourate inside the garage, and it builds up an ice berm if you sweep it out the door . . . after it melts off the tractor.

I have other things on my mind after 3 or 4 hours of riding an open cockpit at sub zero temperatures than chipping ice and hard packed snow off my equipment. I tarp it and let the residual heat in the engine and hydro take care of that, then clear the chunks out of the way the next time I put it to work.

Some of us have learned through trial and error to keep our snow removal equipment cold so that the snow doesn't stick to it. I learned at the tender age of 10 that you park the snow scraper with the back of the blade facing the sun if you have to keep it in an area with southern exposure. The darned thing gets kind of heavy when you put it to the snow after keeping it face to the sun, and the snow will not roll off of it. I've had 59 years to refine my procedures since then, and yes, I did keep my tractor in my heated garage for a couple of winters . . . 30 years ago, until I got tired of chopping ice at the garage entrance.

My tractors get the same treatment as my truck. They go into the heated garage for repairs only.

 

[rubadub]

Lucky you. :fing32:

Around here it has been known to snow enough to have to plow driveways every day for 2 weeks straight, sometimes twice in one day. There is no way that I want that much water on my garage floor in the winter when it is -20° outside. It takes too long to evapourate inside the garage, and it builds up an ice berm if you sweep it out the door . . . after it melts off the tractor.

I have other things on my mind after 3 or 4 hours of riding an open cockpit at sub zero temperatures than chipping ice and hard packed snow off my equipment. I tarp it and let the residual heat in the engine and hydro take care of that, then clear the chunks out of the way the next time I put it to work.

Some of us have learned through trial and error to keep our snow removal equipment cold so that the snow doesn't stick to it. I learned at the tender age of 10 that you park the snow scraper with the back of the blade facing the sun if you have to keep it in an area with southern exposure. The darned thing gets kind of heavy when you put it to the snow after keeping it face to the sun, and the snow will not roll off of it. I've had 59 years to refine my procedures since then, and yes, I did keep my tractor in my heated garage for a couple of winters . . . 30 years ago, until I got tired of chopping ice at the garage entrance.

My tractors get the same treatment as my truck. They go into the heated garage for repairs only.

In this picture you will see just new snow at the garage door, and that's always the way it is here since I've had this tractor, no ice chunks or ice.

When I'm done snow blowing I just drive it in over the drain, the floor has a taper to it, and I leave all the snow on and inside the blower, then turn the heat up to about 60 and walk away.

Next time I want to use it I'll turn the heat up to about 70 a half hour before I take it out and the cab is all ready warm so I don't need any heavy clothes on.

Rob

 

[rubadub]

Here's another picture of a little more snow at the garage door opening, no ice or chunks of ice or a wet floor.

Rob

 

[Rydplrs]

I'm not sure how much negative effect the current crop of newly specced fluids might have, if any

Thats exactly my point, and it was an assumption the GM engineers made incorrectly, because they did not own Allison any more, and made a decision without data.

if its a problem in a 15 year old transmission, it very well could be a problem in a 25 year old hydro pump.

I feel it does future reads a disservice not to put that information in these threads.

Life is too short to learn every mistake yourself. I try to learn from others and not make the same mistakes. In this case I learned from GM that even the best engineers do not always guess correct, and "should be fine" also means "might be very expensive, because it's not actually good enough"

 

[tmcalavy]

Well, since we have diverged enormously from the original topic...all I can say is...all the more reason to live in the sunny South!