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  • You using cloth wad or patch? I had read during studies of the civil war many time during battle wad was not even used. Cap, powder, ball and tamp. I was never willing to test it though. Good to hear it still shoots straight.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
  • You using cloth wad or patch? I had read during studies of the civil war many time during battle wad was not even used. Cap, powder, ball and tamp. I was never willing to test it though. Good to hear it still shoots straight.
No patches used. The bullet gets a circle of bullet lube(heavy cream form) around it's perimeter, tamp, fire.

It is an interesting point you allude to in that, in the weight of battle, the loading process was greatly expedited. In fact, there were numerous accounts of ramrods being fired both by panic and lethal intent. This article covers the topic, interesting read:

 

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Discussion Starter #44
How long does it take to load with bullet lube? It has been years since I have shot black powder.
I'll guesstimate about 30-40 seconds. But that's being pretty deliberate(careful). Putting the lube on might add 6-8 seconds.

For me, the bigger factor is cleaning the gun afterwards. You'll never fully appreciate having to clean your shotgun.............until you've had to clean a black powder muzzleloader. I hear some folks enjoy it.......I wish one of them lived next door to me.
 

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Yes the black powder is a pain to clean out. There use to be a special bore cleaner to remove it. Cleaners for todays powders don't work as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
The worst part of shooting is the cleaning when you get home. Lol

Nice job on the Springfield, Ellis!
Thanks Mike. It was a fun project.

Yes the black powder is a pain to clean out. There use to be a special bore cleaner to remove it. Cleaners for todays powders don't work as well.
One of my older brothers use to hunt deer with a modern muzzleloader. After hunting he would remove the barrel and submerge it under water in the bath tub to clean it. At the time I thought it a bit odd, but can appreciate it now, lol.
 

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Washing that muzzle loader in the bath tub would be an odd thing to do.
Drying the barrel would be difficult. Just the thougjt of rust would prevent me from doing it.
 

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Do you own these two rifles, Ellis? How did they shoot? The 45-70 is quite a cartridge.
Yes, they're mine, Mike. The 45-70 cartridge is a horse. When you look at it, you just can't imagine what it must be like to be hit by it. I have two Trapdoor 45-70's. One is an 1884 model. The other, which is the one I shot, is an 1888 model that has a relatively sloppy bore, and is what I'll call a 100 yd rifle. They are wonderful to shoot, having the feeling of shooting a musket, with the smoke and smell, but the convenience of a cartridge and firing pin.

The M1 Garand is my favorite rifle to shoot, bar none. I have a few of them, this particular one is a CMP(Civilian Marksmanship Program) model. The receiver dates to '44 and the barrel was replaced by the CMP. The good thing about CMP guns in my experience is there is a level of inherent quality at purchase. They are gone over, repaired if necessary, graded, certified, etc.. As to shooting a Garand you notice it's weight immediately, but they shoulder easily, pickup target readily, recoil is surprisingly light, so picking up target on ensuing shots is smooth.

I like to shoot the Garands off shoulder at a 100 yards, firing as fast as I can pick up target and hearing that "TINGGG" sound of the clip flying out. I can usually put the 8 rounds in an 8"-10" circle with a black here and there. For me, taking into account it's design and it's time and place in history, it's the greatest gun ever made. But I know there's quite a few that can make the same claim. I just love the Garand.

I'd be interested to hear others opinions on their favorites.
 

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Your thread started me thinking about the German military Mauser that I've had mounted on a wall for years since removing it from it's many years mounted over my aunt, and uncle's fireplace. Going through Europe in the Army during WWII, (including the Battle of the Bulge), he brought it home, along with other "memorabilia."

I was up until after midnight the other night researching it, and it's markings. It turns out that it's a Mauser Gewehr 1871, or 71, built in Oberndorff for the German Army ( 71s built for the German Army featured a "W" stamp with a crown over it for "Wilhelm", which this has) in 1878. It's butt plate should have had it's assigned regiment stamped on it, but doesn't, possibly because it was recommissioned. It's a single shot, and also fires a black powder cartridge, 11x60mmR.

The question is that since it was built in 1878 and would have served in WWI, what was it still doing in WWII, especially since Mauser had updated with the model 98 which was a repeater with a magazine. I did read that some 71s that survived WWI were restored, and stockpiled, so I guess that it's possible that some of these saw service in WWII, maybe as things started falling apart for the Nazis. (?)

It's in great condition, including the bolt, receiver, trigger, and firing pin. No cleaning rod, or bayonet.
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Glad you posted about your family's rifle, Dave. One thing to consider is that just because your rifle was a "bring back", doesn't necessarily mean it served in WWII. A tremendous amount of privately owned guns were confiscated at war's end. I have a German Drilling that was a bring back. And I got the background story from the man who brought it home to the US. He was part of the occupation forces. One of the first thing the citizens were told was to surrender their guns. He told me many times the guns were merely laid in the street, one end on the curb if there was one, and they would be run over by a tank or whatever was at hand. He saw the Drilling in one such pile, which is a side by side 16ga. over an 8.8mm rifle and grabbed it. Yup, three barrels. Just a possibility, Dave.
 

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The question is that since it was built in 1878 and would have served in WWI, what was it still doing in WWII, especially since Mauser had updated with the model 98 which was a repeater with a magazine. I did read that some 71s that survived WWI were restored, and stockpiled, so I guess that it's possible that some of these saw service in WWII, maybe as things started falling apart for the Nazis. (?)
Most of the German Militia (Verteidigung Kries Kommandos) would have had weapons that were not current during WWII as armaments were sent to front line forces. I had the pleasure of doing shooting with the VKK when I was stationed in Germany.
 

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That might explain it, Tim. Based on it's condition now (still fully serviceable, which has me thinking), and it's being a military weapon, this is possible. Perhaps mystery solved.
I've never fired it. How was the recoil on the VKK that you fired? I would imagine that the barrel's length, and forward biased balance would have compensated for upward movement off target.

Ellis, your Drilling sounds like very neat, and rare rifle. Do you have any pics?
 

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The VKK is a military unit, they came and brought a Machine Gewehr 1 (MG-1) machine gun (famous in WWII), a G-3 rifle, and a pistol. To get a German marksmanship award you have to shoot a specific number of targets with 3 weapons, it took me three times but I finally shot their highest award of the Schützenschnur (marksmanship) in Gold. Unfortunately officers are not allowed to wear it on the uniform, and it is really nice! We brought an M-60 machine gun, M-16, and M1911A1 and they qualified on our weapons, the British came and brought a sten gun to fire and the Polizei came with their new H&K 9mm that had no safety. Remember this was in 1986 when I was stationed there so weapons have changed since then. This was an interoperability program that we learned allied weapons (well except the Polizei, that was politically motivated) so if we needed to use one we had been trained on them.
 

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I thought you were referring to the Gewehr 71 as the VKK since it might have been the rifle issued to the VKK.

That must have been a blast getting the chance to fire those weapons. It must have been a real treat. Good thing you ran the course the third time too, so belated congrats on the gold! Out of those weapons, the least I would have felt bad about not being able to fire would have been the HK anyway.
 

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One of my jobs as the "American Commander" was to try to stay in good political graces with our German hosts. By inviting the Polizei to fire each time we found that my soldiers normally got treated very well by them if for some reason they got involved in something (such as drunk driving!!). I would always get a call from the duty Polizei Officer to come get them and normally no charges were brought up. Only one exception and that is a soldier that got picked up twice in one night!
 

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Beautiful rifle, Dave, I bet it looked real nice mounted over a fire place. I wish I had a fire place, I have an old Stevens break open single shot 12 gage that would look good on display. I’ve fired it several times and had the bruises to prove it. A friend of my late FIL’s always called it “A Goat Gun”. You nail the dumb thing into the dirt and tie the goat to it. Lol
 
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