1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard?? - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 05-16-2018, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

So... I have a misfire/knock on a 1973 Oliver 1365. I thought it was the injectors and had them rebuilt. After reinstalling them, the misfire has gotten worse! I'm now thinking it would have to be a valve issue. Knowing I probably can't get those parts, is this about the point where the tractor becomes a yard ornament?
I know it must be getting fuel, I checked the entire intake and cleaned it all, that all looks great. Seems compression has to be my issue, hence my leaning toward a valve problem.

Any and all advice is very much appreciated!
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post #2 of 11 Old 05-16-2018, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Ugh. After swapping around the injectors it turns out the injectors are still the issue. Looks like I was sold a bill of goods by the service shop which doesn't surprise me based on the experience. Will find another place to have them done right.
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post #3 of 11 Old 05-29-2019, 11:33 AM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

David, did you ever get anywhere with this problem? I have a 1365 (really a 1355 that I just put a 100mm shortblock like a 1365 in), and have a misfire type issue, it was not running perfect with the old engine. I installed a shortblock, had all new valves, springs, guides done in the head, assembled it and then it ran even worse. It seemed like cyl 4 was not contributing fully, so I rotated the #1 and 4 injectors, problem stayed with #4. I then rechecked my valve adjustment, it was ok. I ordered and installed a new injection pump, now it starts and idles perfect, but has misfire/runs poor when accelerated. I was hoping you had fixed yours and it might help with mine?

Thanks
Bob
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post #4 of 11 Old 05-29-2019, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Hey Bob, funny you should ask... I just had mine resolved in the last month. I know this might not fully help, but it's what happened on mine:

Initially I thought it was an injector issue or a valve issue on mine. What it turned out to be was both an injector issue and a cav (fuel) pump issue.

My mechanic was pretty confident it was the pump. Sure enough, my old pump was causing one of the cylinders to misfire. After having a new pump put in (Make sure you got the right one relative to what was on there... there's two different ones for that series engine. Look at the numbers on the old pump to be sure) 90% of my misfire went away but there was still a flutter. After moving the injectors around again, this time the flutter went with the injectors so I know they need to be adjusted.
Before the fuel pump I actually took my injectors into the highest rated injector shop in the Denver area and they totally botched the work and had to refund me and find me another injector.

Anyway, it doesn't seem you're looking at an injector issue anymore. Have you done a pressure test and leak down test? Could be the rings on the cylinder. I know a lot of people swear by pulling the injector and putting Marvel Mystery Oil in the troublesome cylinder and letting it sit for 24-48 hours. Worth a shot, but of course make sure you can suck it back out before firing up again and consider running it without that injector in for a min or two first after evacuating the fluid. My understanding is that the pressure should be within 10% of the others when you do a pressure test, but preferably 5%. If it's higher than 10% that's likely your issue. Sometimes you can run them hard for a while and the rings will loosen up over time now that you put a new pump on it. Consider seafoam or a fuel additive before you really throw a lot of money at it.

Finally make sure the timing is right on that pump if you're pressure comes back fine. I believe it can be off even with a new pump. Did you get one fresh off the shelf or used or refurbed?
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post #5 of 11 Old 05-29-2019, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

I suppose you would likely be fine in trying the MM oil without having to suck it out if you were very careful with how much you add, but turning it over should purge it before putting the injector in. I've never tried this, but I do have a 2006 impala that burns oil if I don't hammer on it once in a while... seems the rings like to stick even when using a full syn oil.
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post #6 of 11 Old 05-29-2019, 02:14 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

I have not "timed" the pump properly, I am going to do so next chance i get to work on it, and run through the valve adjustment again, but I have changed out several pumps (nothing to do with the pump its self) on my 1365 I am using, and always just lined up the marks, it can't be off too far, there is not that much adjustment, but better safe than sorry. I had a dead hole in #4 all the time before the pump, now it idles smooth as silk, all cylinders drop if I crack the lines at the injector evenly. I don't have a way to do a compression test on this engine, no adapter for that, so I thought I would use my Pico scope and preform a cranking current test on it, I can sync it with a knock sensor pressed against an injector line if I have one low, and that will be pretty accurate. I really appreciate the input and quick response, I will get this fixed, I just need the time to work on it! I have a CRP (pollinator/monarch) installation going on at my farm in Michigan right now, had hoped to have both tractors for this, drove to Windsor On. last Nov. to get the short block, but that was an error, the other tractor, I had re sleeved when I did it two years ago, along with a complete rebuild, I "though" that the short block would save me time at the machine shop, but it has made for a lot of problems, my error. So....as soon as I get my planting done (if the rain ever stops), I will spend time on this. I am happy to take any advise anyone has, old school diesels are not my forte in any respect!!
Thanks for the advise and information!

Bob
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post #7 of 11 Old 06-26-2019, 12:03 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

So, just to follow up and let everyone know, I finally had time to look at this and have gotten somewhere. Most of my problems were quite basic, I talked with a teacher at the local junior college that I teach part time at. He runs the small diesel program we have and has quite a bit of experience with older cars that have mechanical diesel injection. He told me that the timing is very critical on all of these engines. Rick @ Rick's ag parts confirmed this, I bought the replacement pump from him. So, I did what I should have done in the first place, removed the side cover from the injection pump, turned the engine until the pump "A" mark lined up with the end of the snap ring, and looked at the flywheel to see if it was lined up with the CAV mark. It was not, not by a long shot! It was near the TDC mark. I had to loosen all of the lines to and from the pump, to get it to turn enough. Then was able to turn the engine to the CAV mark, I had to rotate the pump almost all the way in one direction to line up the "A" mark with the snap ring, I thought for sure it would not run again. I reassembled the pump, bleed the lines, and low and behold, it starts right up, runs almost perfect! Now, when the pump is being set up on the bench, it is supposed to be set with the "A" mark in a position so that when the line on the pump is matched with the line on the timing gear cover, the timing should be correct, this was a long way from correct, more than 1/4" off on the timing gear cover, but, I guess what can you expect from something built in Turkey?
Anyhow, just wanted to post an update, in case anyone else would run into this problem.
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post #8 of 11 Old 06-26-2019, 03:24 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Thanks for following up with what your fix was.
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post #9 of 11 Old 07-16-2019, 12:11 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Ok, just one more update, for those who might follow my quest. The tractor ran pretty well, but not quite perfect, a single cylinder stutter on acceleration, then smoothed out. Also there was a coolant leak near all 4 of the fuel injectors. I emailed Danny Bowes at Import tractor parts, where I had gotten many of my parts, including the short block. He told me there were some "copper sleeves" around the injectors that sealed to the cylinder head with an "O" ring, and that I would need new "sleeves" or reseal mine. He was out of stock on the sleeves, so I ordered "O" rings. I removed the injectors to check this, there are no sleeves there at all, (I was pretty sure I would not have missed them in the first place). I did pressure test the cooling system to find that I had installed the studs that hold the injectors into the head without any sealant on them, I removed, applied permatex sealant, reinstalled, and pressure tested again, no leaks any more. While the injectors were out, I called my fellow teacher at the college, he runs our small, but good diesel program. He was able to test my injectors, we had the correct machine and adapters. He filmed all 4 in slow mo, and low and behold, three had great spray patterns, but one just dribbled out. I ordered a new nozzle for it, we disassembled the injector and cleaned it with an ultrasonic cleaner, but on reassembly, it was not much better. We installed the new nozzle in it and retested - man, looked just like the other three, it had 4 finely atomized sprays. So then we readjusted all 4 to have a pop off pressure of 3225 PSI. Last night I got to reinstall them, and oh boy, the tractor runs near perfect! So good in fact that after running an hour, I reinstalled the sheet metal so she looks like a tractor again. I have many small things to do, including getting the liquid out of the tires, repainting the rear wheels and installing new tires and tubes, but at least it feels like it is worth doing, and my grandpa's tractor will be back at my farm working again before the winter comes. I hope if anyone else has these kind of problems, this will help them sort them out. Good luck! I would have attached a video of it running, but it wont take a video.
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post #10 of 11 Old 07-16-2019, 02:23 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beekeeperbob View Post
Ok, just one more update, ... I hope if anyone else has these kind of problems, this will help them sort them out. Good luck! I would have attached a video of it running, but it wont take a video.
I believe the best way to put a video on MTF is to load it to YouTube and then load the link onto MTF.
Glad you got everything settled on your tractor and a big thank you for posting the fixes and outcomes. So many times the members are left hanging in suspense wondering what, if anything worked, or was the tractor just taken to the junkyard. (or left in a field to slowly rust away)
MikeC.

"It isn't bragging if you've done it."
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post #11 of 11 Old 07-18-2019, 02:55 PM
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Re: 1365 misfire. Time for the scrap yard??

Ok, I am trying this out, here are some videos, first the way it ran with the injector pump timing off, even though the lines on the pump and timing cover were dead on.


Then one after the pump timing was set, the injectors cleaned, tested, one nozzle replaced and all pop off pressures set.



Last, an hour later with the sheet metal back on, looks more like a tractor here.


Not sure if any of this will work, but worth a try, hope if someone else has these kind of problems, some of this will help, or at least push them on!
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