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post #16 of 69 Old 06-10-2017, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
this came from ur first postin..

'''''''''Unique thing happened to this,,IMO

Kohler courage 26 hp sv735-3022

It was run low on oil ,,,and engine seized!! Oil drain plug came loose on its own,,oops!!'''''''''''''

I don't think the crank seal was in too far accordin to ur pics..

so the crank is out.. now tell me how the machinist is gonna find the dead center of the bearing surface.. just remember that he's gotta machine it out to b not more 0.0002.. yup.. if he's more than that it's wasted time & $$$.. also he can't use a lathe to do the reborin for a bushin..

u might get the crank to come out OK.. steel is a lot harder than aluminum is.. usin Meratic Acid will eat all the aluminum off the crank.. but that process is dangerous to do..

I almost feel as if I am arguing with you now because you want to be correct in what you said. I really dont care about that. So lets give it up please.
If you read what I posted about being "no oil,drain plug loose"" In the same post at bottom I also said I was second guessing that because I found allot more oil in it than I thought there would be.
And after got crank out,,,I see the oil port could be blocked, if oil seal is in all the way. I removed the seal a long time ago and was not looking for that at the time!!

Ya these engine need to be with in certain tolerances,,,but they are not rockets going to the moon. Ive seen them run with slop ,,banging around and still running. I am certain I could put this together as is,,after cleaning and polishing everything and it would run for a long time. But it will fail quicker than if it is done correctly!!! How long?? no body can say!!
I will get another casing before I do that. I think the crank is fine!!

But the machine shop should be able to repair this,,and repair it correctly.

I do feel this could have been much worse,, like you pointed out earlier,,but maybe I just got lucky its not so bad this time.

I am willing to pay a pretty good price for that,,since it will be better than buying a new engine.
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post #17 of 69 Old 06-10-2017, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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A real machine shop can bore your cases for bushings or bearings, they need both halves and will align bore them together. Also they can grind the crank surfaces for the new bearings. It's not going to be cheap but it's possible. Depends on how much you want to keep the old engine cases and crank.
I agree. If it is cheaper than buying a new engine case I think it is worth fixing. trying to find used parts for this engine is near impossible. So I dont have many options.
I think this is a gravy job for a machine shop. Or at least I am hoping.lol I will let yall know on Monday what they say..
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post #18 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 12:26 AM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

dollar wise u may come out cheaper than a new engine.. but if there is any mistake in the repair process it won't last long..

now then too if the oil drain was one of them 'NO TOOLS NEEDED' to drain the oil.. I'd say get rid of it & install 3/8 pipe in it's place.. I have found these to leak a lot.. 2 cases I saw they destroyed the engine due to leakin..

I have been givin u all kinds of warnings & possible cures that may b cheaper to do.. u don't gotta do any of that stuff.. do as u wish..

b aware that if u get just a new casing.. u may pay more for that than what an entire engine will run..

in the past I've done way too many engine swaps with one from Craigs.. those engines were local.. usually had them the same day or the next..

now in ur case.. if u go for repairs.. don't expect another day's usage.. but if u do get more than that consider it a blessin..

just to give u an idea on the repairs plan to spend as high as 350-400 for machinin & new parts..

another reminder.. it takes courage to own a Courage..


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Last edited by Whirly; 06-11-2017 at 12:37 AM.
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post #19 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 12:36 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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another reminder.. it takes courage to own a Courage..
That's a good one!

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post #20 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 02:47 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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Originally Posted by spokes100 View Post
That's a good one!
someone else said that before I did.. it's true too.. Kohler made the world's best engines then they came up with the Courage lines.. singles & 'V' twins.. both were a bunch of crap..

I do run a lot of their Commands & Command Pro's.. I think they r a lot better than the B & S engines.. I think Kohler wanted to produce a cheaper made engine.. more profit for them..


the round fenderd JD's
4-JD 60's.. 2-JD 70's.. 6-JD 100's.. 2-JD 110's.. 2-JD 112's..

3 JD LT 155's.. JD R-72.. JD Scotts 2048.. JD 111.. JD Sabre 1742..
WH RJ-58.. WH Lawn Ranger.. WH 654.. WH 854.. 2- MF 14's..
Craftsman GT 6000.. CC 70.. CC 100.. CC 129..
total tractors is 30..
home built log spliter 4x24 ram.. 20hp.. 11 seconds per cycle..

give a monkey a wrench & he can ruin the world.. whirly 7/27/2018
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post #21 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 03:14 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

Whirly, I have not heard a lot of bad press about the v-twin Courage models. I had thought them to be of totally different design than the singles. The singles I am aware of had 'twin cams' for some unknown reason. (ease of assembly?) They finally got their assembly line to use thread locker and the engines quit vibrating their covers loose and whamming the flywheel into the bolts, so they actually ran longer without failure.
They do not have the reputation the Commands and Pros have.
Were this mine, I would consider cleaning the journal before anything else. If the journals won't clean up, I doubt any money invested would be wise. If the journals are all good, then consider repairs. Given that the aluminum of the case is used as the upper and lower crankshaft main bearings, boring, and pouring a new melt in place could be done, or pressing a bushing after boring to accept the bushing outer diameter. I have no clue what the machine shop cost would be. I do think it can be aligned for proper on-center bore. I have a lot of thoughts as to how to effect a well-aligned bore, using hard points on the lower case, which match points on the upper case, to set the cutting tool properly, or assembling the two halves, and setting the bore center using the lower bushing. Which would be more accurate? I'm not a machinist, but expect that the former would allow better control with better precision. Actually, an aluminum bushing could be installed, and then machined to match diameter and center the same as it was from the factory.
I looked at the pictures again, and had the thought that the bore for the seal should be on the same center as the bore for the bearing surface. Surely a good center can be determined from the seal bore. If the original bores were done with the case in the same fixture, they should be concentric, which would allow the seal bore to be used for centering. It could be checked against the center of the lower bushing when they were assembled, or from common hard points.
Problem is, dollars. How many? Dunno. If I had a shop, I'd certainly be willing to spend some time on it How was it done at the factory? Any machinists that can comment?
tom

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Last edited by tomw0; 06-11-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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post #22 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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Originally Posted by tomw0 View Post
Whirly, I have not heard a lot of bad press about the v-twin Courage models. I had thought them to be of totally different design than the singles. The singles I am aware of had 'twin cams' for some unknown reason. (ease of assembly?) They finally got their assembly line to use thread locker and the engines quit vibrating their covers loose and whamming the flywheel into the bolts, so they actually ran longer without failure.
They do not have the reputation the Commands and Pros have.
Were this mine, I would consider cleaning the journal before anything else. If the journals won't clean up, I doubt any money invested would be wise. If the journals are all good, then consider repairs. Given that the aluminum of the case is used as the upper and lower crankshaft main bearings, boring, and pouring a new melt in place could be done, or pressing a bushing after boring to accept the bushing outer diameter. I have no clue what the machine shop cost would be. I do think it can be aligned for proper on-center bore. I have a lot of thoughts as to how to effect a well-aligned bore, using hard points on the lower case, which match points on the upper case, to set the cutting tool properly, or assembling the two halves, and setting the bore center using the lower bushing. Which would be more accurate? I'm not a machinist, but expect that the former would allow better control with better precision. Actually, an aluminum bushing could be installed, and then machined to match diameter and center the same as it was from the factory.
I looked at the pictures again, and had the thought that the bore for the seal should be on the same center as the bore for the bearing surface. Surely a good center can be determined from the seal bore. If the original bores were done with the case in the same fixture, they should be concentric, which would allow the seal bore to be used for centering. It could be checked against the center of the lower bushing when they were assembled, or from common hard points.
Problem is, dollars. How many? Dunno. If I had a shop, I'd certainly be willing to spend some time on it How was it done at the factory? Any machinists that can comment?
tom
I thought the same about the seal bore. It could be machined all way thru and then a bushing put in to match the crank!! Or possibly a pressed in bearing!! Not sure if room for that thou. Maybe leave a small portion of casing separating the inner from outer seal area.

The biggest issue I have seen with the Courage engines,,the singles,,is the drain for oil is either loose. Or it has no tools plastic that has opened itself and run engine out of oil. I get them in blown just like that!! Had several now.
This twin had a loose plug but I think it was not run out of oil,,just low. And something stopped oil from getting to this end of crank. Low oil might cause this?? IDK?
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post #23 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 05:52 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomw0 View Post
Whirly, I have not heard a lot of bad press about the v-twin Courage models. I had thought them to be of totally different design than the singles. The singles I am aware of had 'twin cams' for some unknown reason. (ease of assembly?) They finally got their assembly line to use thread locker and the engines quit vibrating their covers loose and whamming the flywheel into the bolts, so they actually ran longer without failure.
They do not have the reputation the Commands and Pros have.
Were this mine, I would consider cleaning the journal before anything else. If the journals won't clean up, I doubt any money invested would be wise. If the journals are all good, then consider repairs. Given that the aluminum of the case is used as the upper and lower crankshaft main bearings, boring, and pouring a new melt in place could be done, or pressing a bushing after boring to accept the bushing outer diameter. I have no clue what the machine shop cost would be. I do think it can be aligned for proper on-center bore. I have a lot of thoughts as to how to effect a well-aligned bore, using hard points on the lower case, which match points on the upper case, to set the cutting tool properly, or assembling the two halves, and setting the bore center using the lower bushing. Which would be more accurate? I'm not a machinist, but expect that the former would allow better control with better precision. Actually, an aluminum bushing could be installed, and then machined to match diameter and center the same as it was from the factory.
I looked at the pictures again, and had the thought that the bore for the seal should be on the same center as the bore for the bearing surface. Surely a good center can be determined from the seal bore. If the original bores were done with the case in the same fixture, they should be concentric, which would allow the seal bore to be used for centering. It could be checked against the center of the lower bushing when they were assembled, or from common hard points.
Problem is, dollars. How many? Dunno. If I had a shop, I'd certainly be willing to spend some time on it How was it done at the factory? Any machinists that can comment?
tom
just the cost of the boring tool & the polishin tool used for the crank bore will stagger ur mind.. if a local shop could do that (which I doubt) the cost to have it done could run way high into the 'K' numbers.. the guy doin it may never use those same 2 tools again so therefore he's gotta pass the cost onto the OP..


the round fenderd JD's
4-JD 60's.. 2-JD 70's.. 6-JD 100's.. 2-JD 110's.. 2-JD 112's..

3 JD LT 155's.. JD R-72.. JD Scotts 2048.. JD 111.. JD Sabre 1742..
WH RJ-58.. WH Lawn Ranger.. WH 654.. WH 854.. 2- MF 14's..
Craftsman GT 6000.. CC 70.. CC 100.. CC 129..
total tractors is 30..
home built log spliter 4x24 ram.. 20hp.. 11 seconds per cycle..

give a monkey a wrench & he can ruin the world.. whirly 7/27/2018
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post #24 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 06:52 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

It's not just the courage they have the loose quick drain. At least 80% of the engines I see with the quick drain installed is not screwed in the last three or four turns and you can remove with your fingers.
I'm not a hundred percent certain but I believe the engines are shipped to the equipment manufacturer with the factory pipe plug-in. I believe it is an option that the equipment manufacturer installs them self.
Most of them leak or seep a little bit but I am amazed more of them don't vibrate out in puke oil everywhere
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post #25 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 09:49 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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It's not just the courage they have the loose quick drain. At least 80% of the engines I see with the quick drain installed is not screwed in the last three or four turns and you can remove with your fingers.
I'm not a hundred percent certain but I believe the engines are shipped to the equipment manufacturer with the factory pipe plug-in. I believe it is an option that the equipment manufacturer installs them self.
Most of them leak or seep a little bit but I am amazed more of them don't vibrate out in puke oil everywhere
Toby.. I'm with u on that.. all I have seen I could remove with fingers.. I have removed everyone I get & installed pipe in it's place.. the oil mess from leakin is awefull.. done the replacement even on the ones I got for an oil change.. 99% of my friends paid for the pipe & time invested..

I really thought it was a silly invention.. how was a guy to turn the plastic part on the metal part when both would spin together.. I had to use a vicegrip on the metal part to hold it still to turn the plastic.. this negated the 'NO TOOLS NEEDED'..

now then too the treads on the metal part was straight treads like on a bolt.. they should have been pipe threads which r tapered..


the round fenderd JD's
4-JD 60's.. 2-JD 70's.. 6-JD 100's.. 2-JD 110's.. 2-JD 112's..

3 JD LT 155's.. JD R-72.. JD Scotts 2048.. JD 111.. JD Sabre 1742..
WH RJ-58.. WH Lawn Ranger.. WH 654.. WH 854.. 2- MF 14's..
Craftsman GT 6000.. CC 70.. CC 100.. CC 129..
total tractors is 30..
home built log spliter 4x24 ram.. 20hp.. 11 seconds per cycle..

give a monkey a wrench & he can ruin the world.. whirly 7/27/2018
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post #26 of 69 Old 06-11-2017, 11:25 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

Yep. Deere uses a better longer metal one with the black cap. Not as good as pipe but better than the short mostly plastic one.
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post #27 of 69 Old 06-12-2017, 12:36 AM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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Yep. Deere uses a better longer metal one with the black cap. Not as good as pipe but better than the short mostly plastic one.
we may go by our Deere place tomorrow.. I could check what ones they r usin today..


the round fenderd JD's
4-JD 60's.. 2-JD 70's.. 6-JD 100's.. 2-JD 110's.. 2-JD 112's..

3 JD LT 155's.. JD R-72.. JD Scotts 2048.. JD 111.. JD Sabre 1742..
WH RJ-58.. WH Lawn Ranger.. WH 654.. WH 854.. 2- MF 14's..
Craftsman GT 6000.. CC 70.. CC 100.. CC 129..
total tractors is 30..
home built log spliter 4x24 ram.. 20hp.. 11 seconds per cycle..

give a monkey a wrench & he can ruin the world.. whirly 7/27/2018
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post #28 of 69 Old 06-12-2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

Years ago when I worked in an auto parts store that had a machine shop,we'd get an engine like the one discussed once in a while,that had seized the crank into the upper main bearing bore..these engines had no "bearing" or bushing,the crank rode directly on the cast aluminum block..

The "fix" was to use the machine we used to re-size connecting rods or wrist pin bores,it had an adjustable reamer insert of various sizes,a quick honing with that ,just enough meat removed to let the crank fit without binding was all it took to get the engine to run again...you had to be careful not to open the bore up too much and make it sloppy,or you'll have a oil gusher leak the seal wont be able to handle..we'd leave any deep gouging in the case alone,and told the customer "good luck--no guarrantees !..

Perhaps a small brake cylinder hone for honing master & wheel cylinders might work--one of those would cost less than an hours worth of machine shop charges..


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post #29 of 69 Old 06-12-2017, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

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Years ago when I worked in an auto parts store that had a machine shop,we'd get an engine like the one discussed once in a while,that had seized the crank into the upper main bearing bore..these engines had no "bearing" or bushing,the crank rode directly on the cast aluminum block..

The "fix" was to use the machine we used to re-size connecting rods or wrist pin bores,it had an adjustable reamer insert of various sizes,a quick honing with that ,just enough meat removed to let the crank fit without binding was all it took to get the engine to run again...you had to be careful not to open the bore up too much and make it sloppy,or you'll have a oil gusher leak the seal wont be able to handle..we'd leave any deep gouging in the case alone,and told the customer "good luck--no guarrantees !..

Perhaps a small brake cylinder hone for honing master & wheel cylinders might work--one of those would cost less than an hours worth of machine shop charges..
Well,,I just got back from machine shop,,and that is exactly what he is going to try. Hone it out and see if it is a tight fit. There some small gouges in one spot but dont go all way to seal. And they are small,,just large enough we know the honing wont remove them. But they wont hurt a thing,,might give oil a place to rest.
This had minor damage anyhow. The crank cleaned up easily like new.

If he dont like the honing he is going machine and put in a bushing. Said he does these quit often!! Bushing job is $95. So honing will be cheaper but I told him I didnt care either way as long as it was going to work.
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post #30 of 69 Old 06-12-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: 26 hp Kohler,,strange problem found

Shoot, for $95 if it was me, I would just have him bore it and install the bushing to be done with this issue for good.

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