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post #46 of 65 Old 04-23-2018, 10:17 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Remember Reher is talking about racing engines.
All the old diesels I remember had their peak torque some where in the 1600-2000 range.

While I would love to have a diesel GT, I'm selling my Bolens/Iseki and will have 2 gas GT's.

Dan

"My subject is racing engines, not street motors, so Iím not concerned with torque at 2,000 rpm."
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post #47 of 65 Old 04-23-2018, 10:25 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuch View Post
krautwi,
Time to rethink stroke length:

https://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-...ich-is-better/

I'll take a gas job - better smell, easier to work on, and for cold climate folks no gelling of diesel in the cold. These stay outside in the weather, not babied. My Simplicity Powermax tractors with 20hp Onan are plenty powerful to do whatever I need to do. Funny thing, one day with a lot of snow out there, I had my 60" plow on the Powermax. Engine started but ran rough, but since I wanted to get the job done right away, I plowed a foot plus of snow. It went a little slower than normal, but it finished the job. I looked at the tractor the next day, and noticed that one of the plug wires had come off the plug - it plowed all that on one cylinder! The extra cost of a diesel in a truck only pays off after 100k miles, and that was with cheaper diesel. Best regards. BTW, 2500 hours on engine and compression is great.
The article you linked is aimed squarely at (and likely quite applicable to) racing engines..."My subject is racing engines, not street motors, so Iím not concerned with torque at 2,000 rpm." In this application, we're certainly interested in torque levels at those engine speeds, and long-stroke engines have an advantage in that arena at low rpm.

Don't get me wrong here...I run a gas tractor myself that I did a repower on. They definitely have their benefits, and firing up easily in the cold sans plug or heat is definitely one of them that I use every year in the Wisconsin winter. I couldn't justify the cost of a diesel to repower my Large Frame, so it got a lighter duty gas engine. I've driven comparable sized tractors with diesels as well. From a cost standpoint, gas still came out as the more financially feasible option for the situation I was in; most of that is driven by the fact that the resale value on a 40 year old frankensteined GT is poor.

That said, if I was given the choice between a new $15000 diesel SCUT and a new $13000 gas SCUT (which is the rough cost difference between the 2 engines I sampled power curves on earlier)...fuel savings plus resale will cover that difference in favor of the diesel. That's before you factor in the "feel" benefit of a diesel; in the case of the 25 hp pair of Kohlers I cited, the diesel makes the same power about 500 rpm lower than the gasser though much of the powerband. For loader work, snow plowing, and a lot of other common tasks, the diesel will just feel nicer doing those things at lower RPM. The lower RPM helps with the fuel economy aspect of it. The "feel" itself has no tangible financial value, but a lot of people seem to attach at least an intrinsic value to it.


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post #48 of 65 Old 04-23-2018, 11:47 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TWG1572 View Post
Diesels took over in Ag because they were more fuel efficient, lugged better due to the diesel torque curve vs. gas (you get more torque sooner with a diesel), diesel was cheaper than gas, and they were relatively simple to fix.

That was 50 years ago though back in the days of mechanical injection, no EPA stuff, etc... Now, they are just as complicated, or more so, than gassers. In some cases - it seems like diesel has "jumped the shark". I looked at a diesel pickup this spring - it's not worth the extra cost and complexity. I ended up with a gas truck. If I was towing stuff thousands of miles a year, maybe. But that's not my use case.

I get your point. It's a pain to have multiple fuel types around. The new diesels are complicated - I'm not buying the logic they will last forever like their ancestors from 30 years ago. And it's not like any of us are running our tractors at rated power for any appreciable time, which is where the lugging benefits really stand out.

All that said, I do have a 430 on my bucket list someday. There is definitely a cool factor.
They really arent that much more complicated. They have electronics now, same as the gassers, and they have emissions components in the exhaust system (speaking for any engine over about 85hp). But the technology increases is where the life span will come from. The new engines will outlast the older engines by a HUGE margin, on average. They already are. For example, an older 30 or 40 series John Deere, you would get about 6000 hours before a rebuild was in order. Maybe up to 9000. Nowadays they are getting well over 20000 hours and show no signs of needing it. Tighter tolerences, multi stage injection and computer controls have increased diesel engine lifespan very much.

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post #49 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 03:35 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

I had a diesel, ran great.

Nonsense! I had a gasoline engine that ran better!

ok, glad that's settled.

Here in Europe, diesel is 20% cheaper than gasoline. 'farm' diesel is 20% cheaper than road diesel.

No one seems to know why though. Fuel is horrendously expensive here, always has been. These days they say it's highly taxed to discourage pollution, but it's been this way since ww2, when 'pollution' hadn't even been heard of yet.

Anyway, the reality is that our decisions are highly emotional. I chose a little turbo diesel car. I didn't do the numbers first; I want to drive country distances without thinking too much of the fuel cost.

And it's the same with your little tractors. You can make a good argument for either fuel; with effort, you could argue for electric or steam.

So you might as well do what you feel.

I bought a 4 ton 85HP 4wd tractor and I only have 10 acres.
People ask me why such a big machine?
Because I LIKE IT!

Yes, of course it's diesel.
Gimme 2 tons of free batteries and I'll go electric.

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post #50 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 07:47 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

The Reher article was just about dispelling the myth that longer rods make more power. We're not talking about race engines, of course, but about engines in general. One thing to consider about costs and the gas vs diesel economy issue: when you pay $2k extra for a diesel, that money you have spent is not free. You are paying interest on it, and at 5% that is an extra $100 per year, or 15 extra tankfuls of gas. And if you pay cash (advisable), you still have lost opportunity for the $2k to bring in revenue. It's all academic, really just getting to the facts. When I need to do real work, I fire-up my 60hp diesel skidsteer and take care of business - unless of course it's so cold that even with the block heater on the diesel in the tank has gelled and it is just a yard ornament. Best regards.
BTW The market place I think forces you to go diesel today. I would not buy an aluminum block engine in a tractor, and it seems most of the gas jobs available are aluminum block with iron liners - pffhht.

Last edited by TooMuch; 04-24-2018 at 07:57 AM. Reason: Last thought
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post #51 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Awesome work with Excel there, that makes things really easy to see. I used to be able to do that but it's been been 5+ years since I tried anything more advanced than "Auto-SUM"

Quote:
Originally Posted by krautwi View Post
My contention was more that, in the 20-30 hp space, current gas engines aren't designed to deliver low-end torque for a given horsepower level. Your comments above got me interested enough that I decided to look at a few power curves to get a handle on how things look in this space. I figured I should analyze a bit to see the differences, so I took a look at the Kohler ECH-740 engine, which is a closed loop EFI Command Pro series, and the Kohler KD625/2, which is an air cooled diesel. Both are rated right around 25 hp.
My contention is that you cannot compare HP-to-HP, as you have done and as DL-North said on page 1... that is comparing Apples-to-Armadillos. Cheaper gas engines make more HP than more expensive diesel engines.

2018 RAM 1500 5.7L Gas 395 HP -$3,120
2018 RAM 1500 3.0L Diesel 240 HP

2018 RAM 2500 6.4L Gas 410 HP -$8,700
2018 RAM 2500 6.7L Diesel 370 HP

2018 Chev Colorado 2.5L Gas 200 HP -$6,290
2018 Chev Colorado 3.6L Gas 308 HP -$3,105
2018 Chev Colorado 2.8L Diesel 181 HP

What does your Excel graph look like if you compare the liquid-cooled Kohlers?
LH775 0.75L Gas 30 HP -$746
KDW1003 1L Diesel 23 HP
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post #52 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 10:22 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Eric,

What is the largest gas engine machine you've found? Is it large enough to do the work you envision?

Dan
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post #53 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 02:48 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
that money you have spent is not free. You are paying interest on it,
Not mine. I got zero percent financing for 5 years on my Kubota.

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post #54 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 03:03 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Here's my take. I currently have a Craftsman GT 54" mower with a Berco 47" blower. I have 2 acres, and not enough trees to warrant a zero turn. I personally refuse to buy 2 machines. And I just mow and blow.

My current blower is a belt drive. But that Berco can blow exceptionally well. Last season was horrible. Snapped 2 belts. Rock got stuck in my fan blade and bent the blade. Total PITA to fix that. But this season, less snow and no issues.

I want to "move up" to a shaft drive blower with hydraulic lift. A JD x738 or x739 would fit the bill. They mow great. Hands down best drive over deck option. But IMO, the blowers are weaker than my Berco. Weaker as in they don't throw the snow as far as the Berco. That's a huge issue for me. My driveway and lot is such that I would be blowing a lot of snow twice to get it to where I want it to be. If Berco would build a blower for the x739, I would already own a JD. And I prefer gas because I don't want to have 2 different gas cans and I have concerns about cold starting a diesel.

After a lot of research, the best option for me is a Kubota 2380. My garage doors are only 7ft tall. Kubota fits. JD doesn't. Kubota builds a really good blower with chute deflector AND rotation options. JD finally has an option, but not as integrated as Berco or Kubota. JD blower for the x1 series is still as weak as the x7 series. Berco on a x1025 can run circles around the JD blower. So Kubota has the best package setup for what I use a tractor. Do I need a loader? No, but I'll get one. I will find enough uses to justify it. Cold starting diesel? I'll just have to deal with it, it's not all that bad.

Price of gas vs. diesel? Not a factor...
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post #55 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 05:14 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Portugal View Post
I had a diesel, ran great.

Nonsense! I had a gasoline engine that ran better!

ok, glad that's settled.

Perfect summary!

The key debate is the one where your significant other is saying you don't need a 5-figure tractor, and you're trying to wear her/him down so you can get the dang toy, I mean equipment.

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post #56 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 08:57 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by 92merc View Post
I want to "move up" to a shaft drive blower with hydraulic lift. A JD x738 or x739 would fit the bill. They mow great. Hands down best drive over deck option. But IMO, the blowers are weaker than my Berco. Weaker as in they don't throw the snow as far as the Berco. That's a huge issue for me. My driveway and lot is such that I would be blowing a lot of snow twice to get it to where I want it to be. If Berco would build a blower for the x739, I would already own a JD.
They do. It's the same blower that just needs the linkages to connect to the JD mounts. Fire up the torch and welder and make them.

Impellor tip speed determines how far the snow goes after it leaves the chute. A larger diameter impellor throws snow further at a given speed, and a smaller diameter impellor needs more rpm for a longer distance. Make adjustments to the reduction ratios as necessary.

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post #57 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 09:16 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric2075 View Post
Awesome work with Excel there, that makes things really easy to see. I used to be able to do that but it's been been 5+ years since I tried anything more advanced than "Auto-SUM"



My contention is that you cannot compare HP-to-HP, as you have done and as DL-North said on page 1... that is comparing Apples-to-Armadillos. Cheaper gas engines make more HP than more expensive diesel engines.

2018 RAM 1500 5.7L Gas 395 HP -$3,120
2018 RAM 1500 3.0L Diesel 240 HP

2018 RAM 2500 6.4L Gas 410 HP -$8,700
2018 RAM 2500 6.7L Diesel 370 HP

2018 Chev Colorado 2.5L Gas 200 HP -$6,290
2018 Chev Colorado 3.6L Gas 308 HP -$3,105
2018 Chev Colorado 2.8L Diesel 181 HP

What does your Excel graph look like if you compare the liquid-cooled Kohlers?
LH775 0.75L Gas 30 HP -$746
KDW1003 1L Diesel 23 HP
As it relates to automobiles, current diesel emissions regulations are more stringent than gasoline in regard to particulate emissions, requiring expensive emissions equipment. Diesels are also viewed, in trucks at least, as "better"...people will pay more for them, and I suspect the pricing structure is used by the automakers to improve the profit margins on those vehicles.

I pulled the curves for those 2 liquid cooled engines (full disclosure: I had to use the curve for the LDW1003, which is the Lombardini-branded version of the KDW, because I couldn't find a proper KDW curve. I used the middle curve again.) and overlaid them with the previous 2. Result is below. Torque and horsepower on the 30 hp gasser don't pass the 23 hp diesel until 2700 rpm, which is more engine speed than you'd likely use for any non-PTO task.

When it comes to engine power, the transmission and final drives for the tractor need to be designed to handle max power. More power requires larger tractor components to maintain reliability. This is why you don't see a 30 hp in the smallest size of SCUT, be it the Deere 1 series, MF 1700, Kubota BX80, or New Holland Boomer Compact. You can buy heavier tractors with low power engines, but those tractors cost more. In the smallest SCUT class, a 30 hp gas engine wouldn't be available.

Given that tractors have components that are sized by max power, are sold by horsepower, and that 1 horsepower does the same amount of work regardless of what energy source it came from, comparing engines of equal horsepower is what the manufacturer does when looking to design a machine. As the curves show, diesels generate better power through the low end of the RPM range, making them more suited for the way the machine is actually used. The manufacturer (any company, really) is worried about 1 thing, and that's making money in a sustained fashion. One way to do that in the durable goods market is to make things that last past the warranty period far enough to keep people happy, minimize complaints that cause people to bring equipment in for "warranty" fixes, and maximize word-of-mouth (free) advertising. An engine that lasts longer, provides a better operating experience at speeds below full throttle, and does better on fuel is an easy choice for the OEM in light of their goals.

In the world where tractor enthusiasts like us do things like repower old GTs, the concept gets muddy, as many old machines were well over-built and can handle some additional power. You or I might well do that on a repower and get away with it because we understand how to take care of our equipment. In the repower circumstance, where the cost of the tractor is small, and resale value is poor, the cost of the engine becomes a lot more important to the decision. In that case, gas is an excellent choice. For what you're trying to accomplish, gas may also be an excellent choice. Unfortunately, for the original equipment manufacturer in today's market (being the ones who determine what is available on the market), I don't see any case where selling a gas SCUT would help them make any more money, which is the only thing that they look at. When it doesn't hit the bottom line, they won't build it.
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post #58 of 65 Old 04-24-2018, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

You're pretty good at digging this stuff up. Can you find a chart for the ELH 750 which I mentioned in post #8 of this thread (27 HP with torque peak at 2400 instead of the 3400 peak of the ELH 775)?

Either the torque curve of the 750 is unpublished or my google-fu is seriously failing me.
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post #59 of 65 Old 04-25-2018, 11:49 AM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by TUDOR View Post
They do. It's the same blower that just needs the linkages to connect to the JD mounts. Fire up the torch and welder and make them.
Yeah, but that's a 56" model. IMO, that's just a bit too large for a x7 series. Personally, I'd rather they made a 47" that would have less chances of bogging down. And all that extra weight of the 56" adds stress to the frame that really isn't needed. Plus, I'm not exactly a handy guy when it comes to welding. I'd rather the manufacturer design it right from the get go and not have to chop and modify things. Both Berco for an x7, and JD for their tractors.

My buddy has the exact same tractor as I do. He bought a Berco a year after I did. He went with the 44" instead of the 47". 120lbs difference. Of course, the GT frame is no where near as strong as a SCUT. So weight really did matter. He still clears his driveway about the same time as I do.

That impeller is exactly why Berco is better than JD. Which is why I don't get JD doesn't come up with an updated blower for the x7 and x1. The fix isn't all that hard.
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post #60 of 65 Old 04-25-2018, 02:18 PM
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Re: Why no gas SCUTs?

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Originally Posted by 92merc View Post
Yeah, but that's a 56" model. IMO, that's just a bit too large for a x7 series. Personally, I'd rather they made a 47" that would have less chances of bogging down. And all that extra weight of the 56" adds stress to the frame that really isn't needed. Plus, I'm not exactly a handy guy when it comes to welding. I'd rather the manufacturer design it right from the get go and not have to chop and modify things. Both Berco for an x7, and JD for their tractors.
Any blower will choke on a full bite, even the 2500 hp rotary plows used by railroads.

My 16 hp Onan handled a 48" wide, 22" high blower with few issues. An X7xx with 50% more horse power should be able to handle a 56" blower at least equally well.

I do understand about the skill set required to make the necessary mods. That's not in the cards for more than a few folk.

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